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LMA v BMFA insurance

Has anyone jumped ship to the LMA?

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Rob Buckley10/01/2017 21:53:24
30 forum posts

There's nothing stopping any modeller in this country sorting out their own insurance, renting a farmer's field and flying models from it.

If clubs are affiliated to the BMFA and have all the benefits of BMFA membership (in addition to just the insurance cover) it's not entirely unreasonable to pay for it.

Of course, anybody who thinks that those of us who put in a lot of our own leisure time into working on behalf of UK modellers is doing a poor job, you are more than welcome to come and have a go. Or indeed as several have done over the years, start your own gang.

Martin Harris10/01/2017 22:02:54
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6503 forum posts
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You'd be free to get insurance from any company which would quote you for it but I'd suggest the best hope for continued model flying would be to support a national organisation which has a proven record of negotiating with government bodies - especially in view of the current threats to our freedom to fly.

Yes, there are questions over issues such as voting rights and governance structures but it's up to members to attempt to fine tune them. The major organisations in this country aren't really in competition with each other and all have their parts to play. I don't see it as "them and us" - more those interested and able enough to take an active role and the rest of us who are happy enough to let them.

Oh, and some who enjoy criticising without being prepared to do anything more positive!

Edited By Martin Harris on 10/01/2017 22:08:57

Peter Christy10/01/2017 22:39:28
599 forum posts
Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/01/2017 21:13:56:Like many in the UK I live in a fairly crowded part of the world. There is not space for a new flying club. Also, note that our local authority does not allow modelling flying in our parks or on our beaches. So, if you are to fly RC models you need to join one of the existing clubs. There isn't really another way.

Within 1 hours drive of my house there are two clubs. Both are BMFA Affliated clubs. Now, the BMFA have a rule - for a club to have affliated status all of its members (no exceptions!) must hold BMFA membership.

So, in practice, if I am to fly RC models I have to be a member of BMFA - i have no real choice. If I was not a member - I couldn't join either of these clubs and so I wouldn't be able to follow my hobby. Whether I believe it is a splendid organisation or not - in practical terms I have to join the BMFA.

Please explain to me how that is not effectively a "closed shop"?

BEB

Its not a closed shop enforced by the BMFA. The local council are just as much to blame for their short-sighted and restrictive attitude. Why blame it all on the BMFA? If it wasn't for council regulation, you would be perfectly free to form your own club outside the BMFA. Indeed, you probably still could, but it would take a lot of effort.

So no, its not effectively a closed shop.

--

Pete

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator10/01/2017 22:46:49
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Posted by Peter Christy on 10/01/2017 22:39:28:
Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/01/2017 21:13:56:Like many in the UK I live in a fairly crowded part of the world. There is not space for a new flying club. Also, note that our local authority does not allow modelling flying in our parks or on our beaches. So, if you are to fly RC models you need to join one of the existing clubs. There isn't really another way.

Within 1 hours drive of my house there are two clubs. Both are BMFA Affliated clubs. Now, the BMFA have a rule - for a club to have affliated status all of its members (no exceptions!) must hold BMFA membership.

So, in practice, if I am to fly RC models I have to be a member of BMFA - i have no real choice. If I was not a member - I couldn't join either of these clubs and so I wouldn't be able to follow my hobby. Whether I believe it is a splendid organisation or not - in practical terms I have to join the BMFA.

Please explain to me how that is not effectively a "closed shop"?

BEB

Its not a closed shop enforced by the BMFA. The local council are just as much to blame for their short-sighted and restrictive attitude. Why blame it all on the BMFA? If it wasn't for council regulation, you would be perfectly free to form your own club outside the BMFA. Indeed, you probably still could, but it would take a lot of effort.

So no, its not effectively a closed shop.

--

Pete

Hang on! I didn't say it was entirely BMFA's fault it was that it is a closed shop did I? No.

But it is a closed shop in reality and its pointless to deny it! What else would you call a situation in which I have no real choice about membership of an organisation? Surely that is the definition of a closed shop? To say it isn't simply because BMFA aren't entirely responsible doesn't change the reality for me does it?

BEB

PatMc10/01/2017 23:06:03
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BEB, that's not a "closed shop" at all. You don't say that the two clubs are obliged to be affiliated to the BMFA, presumably they have freely made that choice. The fact that there's no other available land is hardly the fault of those clubs or the BMFA.

BTW I'm in two clubs, one chose to become affiliated to the BMFA. The other isn't BMFA affiliated but does require members to be insured - AFAIK most of us are either insured through the BMFA or the LMA.

And of course all RC model flyers, whether BMFA members or not, enjoy the results of what has been negotiated over many years by the BMFA.

Edited By PatMc on 10/01/2017 23:11:52

john stones 110/01/2017 23:10:24
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Question, lets say all my club bought our own BMFA online, meaning we didn't meet the minimum requirement to be an affiliate, what would we lose as a club.

Or if you prefer, what extra benefits do we get for being an affiliate ?

John

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator10/01/2017 23:41:41
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Sorry Pat - we'll have to agree to disagree then. For me the issue is what is my experinece - not what is the experience of the clubs, the council, uncle Tom Cobbly etc. Its my experience and my perspective. From where I stand - that's a closed shop - because I have no relaistic alternative other than to join - whoever is responsible for that!

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/01/2017 23:42:48

iqon11/01/2017 01:20:27
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1085 forum posts
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Posted by john stones 1 on 10/01/2017 23:10:24:

Question, lets say all my club bought our own BMFA online, meaning we didn't meet the minimum requirement to be an affiliate, what would we lose as a club.

Or if you prefer, what extra benefits do we get for being an affiliate ?

John

You may not exist in the eyes of the BMFA - you would lose any help from northern area, you may fall foul of the new "easa" regulations. I`m only guessing .....

Peter Christy11/01/2017 09:31:21
599 forum posts

I have to say, I'm with PatMc on this one. A "closed shop" to me is where a single organisation controls all access to a job / flyingsites / whatever in a particular area. For a start, in BEB's case, there are three totally independent organisations involved, the council and the two flying clubs. The council are not insisting on BMFA membership, and the clubs have each (and independently) voluntarily decided to affiliate to the BMFA. The BMFA won't have coerced them. Ergo: Its not a closed shop!

BEB could 1) try and persuade the council to change its attitude or 2) try and persuade one or both of the clubs to de-affiliate or 3) travel outside the area to fly.

I would concede that 1 & 2 are unlikely to succeed, but no way could this situation be considered a closed shop! Believe me, I've had experience of "closed shops"!

--

Pete

Andy Symons - BMFA11/01/2017 09:43:47
258 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by john stones 1 on 10/01/2017 23:10:24:

Question, lets say all my club bought our own BMFA online, meaning we didn't meet the minimum requirement to be an affiliate, what would we lose as a club.

Or if you prefer, what extra benefits do we get for being an affiliate ?

John

John

For a brief overview see **LINK**

For more details see **LINK**

There is also support from the Area too (portaloos for events for example in the Northern Area)

Keith Lomax11/01/2017 09:52:46
71 forum posts
Posted by Rob Buckley on 10/01/2017 20:07:20:

I was trying very hard not to get dragged into this, but seeing as an elected official of the BMFA is making inaccurate statements about LMA insurance I need to make a public correction.

 

LMA insurance includes club committee cover. As we only have 2 clubs (and aren’t in the affiliated club market in ‘competition’ to the BMFA) that’s not an issue for most.

LMA insurance (as all our members will know as it’s printed on their membership card insurance summary) is worldwide

LMA insurance includes crown indemnity

 

LMA insurance has no excess payment on liability claims

LMA insurance includes member to member cover

LMA insurance includes free travel cover for modelling trips

Many thanks for this, and I apologise for my error, I was misinformed. I tried to edit that out of my post, but do not have an edit button (perhaps the forum software locks it after a period of time, because I can edit this one). 

Edited By Keith Lomax on 11/01/2017 09:56:52

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator11/01/2017 12:03:05
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Posted by Peter Christy on 11/01/2017 09:31:21:

I have to say, I'm with PatMc on this one. A "closed shop" to me is where a single organisation controls all access to a job / flyingsites / whatever in a particular area. For a start, in BEB's case, there are three totally independent organisations involved, the council and the two flying clubs. The council are not insisting on BMFA membership, and the clubs have each (and independently) voluntarily decided to affiliate to the BMFA. The BMFA won't have coerced them. Ergo: Its not a closed shop!

BEB could 1) try and persuade the council to change its attitude or 2) try and persuade one or both of the clubs to de-affiliate or 3) travel outside the area to fly.

I would concede that 1 & 2 are unlikely to succeed, but no way could this situation be considered a closed shop! Believe me, I've had experience of "closed shops"!

--

Pete

Thanks for telling me how I should feel about this Peter - I'm much obliged.

BEB

john stones 111/01/2017 12:16:54
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Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 11/01/2017 09:43:47:
Posted by john stones 1 on 10/01/2017 23:10:24:

Question, lets say all my club bought our own BMFA online, meaning we didn't meet the minimum requirement to be an affiliate, what would we lose as a club.

Or if you prefer, what extra benefits do we get for being an affiliate ?

John

John

For a brief overview see **LINK**

For more details see **LINK**

There is also support from the Area too (portaloos for events for example in the Northern Area)

Thanks Andy

Portaloos eh ? will they help even if you miss the meeting and do in retrospect wink

john stones 111/01/2017 12:33:39
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7832 forum posts
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No idea why BMFA insist on all members must have BMFA insurance myself for you to be an affiliate, but it do's represent a closed shop in effect, whatever you fellas say.

You might do better to explain why all need to have BMFA's insurance. I have had many lectures from LMA insured lads who we insist have to have BMFA to stay as club members, their's is recognised Worldwide as fit for purpose.

John

Percy Verance11/01/2017 13:27:54
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4916 forum posts
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John

I imagine they insist on it because you'll then obtain your insurance from them......

This sort of thing isn't exclusive to the BMFA. I've seen a similar situation on a caravan site not too far from my village. All the caravans and lodges have LPG gas heating, and one of the conditions/stipulations is that you must buy your gas from the site supply. And, once you've had enough and want to move on and sell your lodge, again you have to offer it to the site owners first.

Edited By Percy Verance on 11/01/2017 13:29:30

Doug Campbell11/01/2017 13:42:39
47 forum posts
2 photos
Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/01/2017 21:13:56:
Posted by Rob Buckley on 10/01/2017 20:51:54:

If you're an LMA member, you get LMA insurance. The same as the BMFA. Neither association is a 'closed shop' despite what some are seemingly desperate to believe.

Well, I can't speak about LMA - I have no membership experience - but I can comment on the BMFA and whether it is effectively a "closed shop" or not.

I wasn't going to raise this matter - but as it has already been raised I will.

Like many in the UK I live in a fairly crowded part of the world. There is not space for a new flying club. Also, note that our local authority does not allow modelling flying in our parks or on our beaches. So, if you are to fly RC models you need to join one of the existing clubs. There isn't really another way.

Within 1 hours drive of my house there are two clubs. Both are BMFA Affliated clubs. Now, the BMFA have a rule - for a club to have affliated status all of its members (no exceptions!) must hold BMFA membership.

So, in practice, if I am to fly RC models I have to be a member of BMFA - i have no real choice. If I was not a member - I couldn't join either of these clubs and so I wouldn't be able to follow my hobby. Whether I believe it is a splendid organisation or not - in practical terms I have to join the BMFA.

Please explain to me how that is not effectively a "closed shop"?

BEB

Utter rubbish BEB. You choose where you live. You cant blame the BMFA because your two local clubs probably democratically voted to affiliate to the Bmfa. This is just sour grapes. If you feel that strongly about it form your own club and approach the council. If you get a site from them you will probably find they insist on bmfa insurance as councils know it provides the level of cover required. You might like to research the home office guidance for the byelaw banning the flying of model aircraft. " the purpose of this byelaw is not to ban the flying of model aircraft completely in the borough but to restrict it to suitable sites" You might get somewhere with the right approach

Peter Christy11/01/2017 13:54:57
599 forum posts

I'm trying to remember when BMFA membership and insurance were combined - I know it was a long time ago. But I also recall a time when more than one organisation offered insurance. Who else remembers MAP insurance, organised by the then publishers of RCM&E as I recall?

For various reasons, all the alternatives fell by the wayside, perhaps due to society becoming increasingly litigious? But in any event, when the MoD started insisting very large amounts of protection before allowing events on their property, some kind of common policy must have made sense.

I've been involved in organising a few events myself, and I certainly wouldn't have time to read every individual policy to see if an entrant was adequately covered before allowing him/her to fly. If its BMFA insurance, I know that not only is the entrant covered, but I am too!

Similarly, at my local club, I can be confident that everyone there carries adequate insurance to protect me and my belongings in the event of an accident. I am in favour of my club being affiliated, but that is a free choice I and the other members have made. If others feel differently, then fine, that is their choice.

Nobody forces clubs to affiliate to the BMFA, nobody forces people to belong to the BMFA. Everyone is free to make their own choices over this. You may well argue that getting decent cover without belonging to some kind of organisation is difficult, but to accuse a not-for-profit and generally benevolent organisation of running a closed shop is taking things a bit far (in my humble opinion, for the benefit of BEB!).

And it is VERY cheap for the level of protection it affords!

Come on, folks, get a sense of proportion here!

--

Pete

john stones 111/01/2017 13:57:47
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7832 forum posts
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Usual stuff again i see, yes our club chose to affiliate, yes it was democratic, yes you chose where you live (work permitting) yes buying BMFA and LMA is no biggie to a lot of folk, But only allowing BMFA insured members to join your club means it's a "closed shop" so to repeat myself. The BMFA insist ALL members be ensured by them and there may be valid reasons why, so defend that rather than attack individuals who question things ?

John

Andy Symons - BMFA11/01/2017 14:08:48
258 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by john stones 1 on 11/01/2017 13:57:47:

Usual stuff again i see, yes our club chose to affiliate, yes it was democratic, yes you chose where you live (work permitting) yes buying BMFA and LMA is no biggie to a lot of folk, But only allowing BMFA insured members to join your club means it's a "closed shop" so to repeat myself. The BMFA insist ALL members be ensured by them and there may be valid reasons why, so defend that rather than attack individuals who question things ?

John

It is simply so the extra insurances and benefits can be extended to the club, there is a cost for them. Its a partnership, if the club wants those extra insurances and benefits the "cost" is all members have to be BMFA members. If you prefer to seek those extra insurances and benefits elsewhere (and have to pay for them) you are of course free to do so.

The BMFA does not insist clubs affiliate, clubs weigh up the benefits and decide if they wish to.

Percy Verance11/01/2017 14:13:45
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4916 forum posts
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Peter

I had MAP insurance for many years prior to the BMFA coming into being.......

Oddly, I don't recall the same emphasis on affiliation back in the SMAE days?

Edited By Percy Verance on 11/01/2017 14:21:18

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