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LMA v BMFA insurance

Has anyone jumped ship to the LMA?

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Peter Christy11/01/2017 14:34:27
760 forum posts

Hi Percy,

Yes, that was what I was trying to recall - when it happened and why. I do remember it happening, and that the general consensus at the time was that it was a good idea, but it was a long time ago.

It must have happened as a result of a vote at the AGM, but it was long before I got involved with anything to do with the BMFA, so my recollection is a bit vague. I have no idea where the proposal came from, but I do remember it being generally welcomed in the club I belonged to at the time.

It certainly made life much simpler for the volunteers on the committee.

--

Pete

john stones 111/01/2017 14:52:39
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Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 11/01/2017 14:08:48:
Posted by john stones 1 on 11/01/2017 13:57:47:

Usual stuff again i see, yes our club chose to affiliate, yes it was democratic, yes you chose where you live (work permitting) yes buying BMFA and LMA is no biggie to a lot of folk, But only allowing BMFA insured members to join your club means it's a "closed shop" so to repeat myself. The BMFA insist ALL members be ensured by them and there may be valid reasons why, so defend that rather than attack individuals who question things ?

John

It is simply so the extra insurances and benefits can be extended to the club, there is a cost for them. Its a partnership, if the club wants those extra insurances and benefits the "cost" is all members have to be BMFA members. If you prefer to seek those extra insurances and benefits elsewhere (and have to pay for them) you are of course free to do so.

The BMFA does not insist clubs affiliate, clubs weigh up the benefits and decide if they wish to.

Thanks Andy

So it's a deal that clubs enter into, (if they choose) to theirs and the BMFA's benefit.

Stop getting yourselves worked up over the term "closed shop" folks there's lots of em about.

John

Martin Harris11/01/2017 15:07:40
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6994 forum posts
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I agree John. My club IS a closed shop, in as much as the membership decided, many years ago, to affiliate to the SMAE/BMFA. This position could be reversed at any time should the membership desire. with no immediate effect on our flying activities so to say that the BMFA forces model flying into a closed shop activity is, in my opinion, totally incorrect. Whether our activities would survive long term if the majority of clubs were to go it alone is a different matter!

I believe that those members who have given the matter any thought have appreciated that as members of a national representative body, we benefit enough to justify the cost. Any thinking otherwise have, so far, kept their thoughts private in a club which encourages free interchange of opinion and makes efforts to attract "fresh blood" onto the committee.

Edited By Martin Harris on 11/01/2017 15:09:57

Andy Symons - BMFA11/01/2017 15:10:39
304 forum posts
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Posted by john stones 1 on 11/01/2017 14:52:39:
Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 11/01/2017 14:08:48:
Posted by john stones 1 on 11/01/2017 13:57:47:

Usual stuff again i see, yes our club chose to affiliate, yes it was democratic, yes you chose where you live (work permitting) yes buying BMFA and LMA is no biggie to a lot of folk, But only allowing BMFA insured members to join your club means it's a "closed shop" so to repeat myself. The BMFA insist ALL members be ensured by them and there may be valid reasons why, so defend that rather than attack individuals who question things ?

John

It is simply so the extra insurances and benefits can be extended to the club, there is a cost for them. Its a partnership, if the club wants those extra insurances and benefits the "cost" is all members have to be BMFA members. If you prefer to seek those extra insurances and benefits elsewhere (and have to pay for them) you are of course free to do so.

The BMFA does not insist clubs affiliate, clubs weigh up the benefits and decide if they wish to.

Thanks Andy

So it's a deal that clubs enter into, (if they choose) to theirs and the BMFA's benefit.

Stop getting yourselves worked up over the term "closed shop" folks there's lots of em about.

John

That pretty much the size of it. If it's a closed shop that is simply because that is what the club and it's members have decided. A bit like deciding they are a fixed wing only or a helicopter only club etc.

Percy Verance11/01/2017 15:26:07
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Peter

I seem to recall it was around the end of the 80's the SMAE morphed into the BMFA.

I also remember one or two old salts - sadly now departed - saying they weren't too happy about it at the time.

Edited By Percy Verance on 11/01/2017 15:27:39

john stones 111/01/2017 15:57:26
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Well now i'm curious how Affiliation came into being ?

Where the add ons the incentive to affiliate from the beginning, or are they/some later additions ?

John

Keith Lomax11/01/2017 16:03:22
97 forum posts

I joined in 1988 or '89 and membership included insurance then.

The chairman at the time had been in post for around ten years when I took up my first post on Council in '90 or '91.

She told me that the decision to widen the insurance to include club cover and to make SMAE membership compulsory was a decision that she had led - which would suggest very early '80's. At the time, the SMAE was struggling. A lot of clubs had the minimum five affiliated members and many "non-affiliated" members, so the few who paid the membership fee were propping up the rest. At the time, subscriptions were reduced from (I think) £12 to £5. There was a lot of scepticism, many people thought it would be the end, but membership numbers increased massively to more than cover the drop.

SMAE Ltd adopted the trading name British Model Flying Association in 1989.

Edited By Keith Lomax on 11/01/2017 16:07:30

john stones 111/01/2017 16:08:51
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Thanks Keith.

Andy Symons - BMFA11/01/2017 16:11:45
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Posted by john stones 1 on 11/01/2017 15:57:26:

Where the add ons the incentive to affiliate from the beginning, or are they/some later additions ?

John

We are constantly reviewing the benefits and looking for extra benefits that can be added. In the last 2 years we have added the free Club Equipment insurance and club website hosting.

Gary Manuel11/01/2017 17:30:17
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1181 forum posts
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BMFA are generally doing a great job as far as I can see. I'm happy to pay the current subs - especially with what's looming.

They just need to listen to their members re proportional representation and move into the current century to get the full support and respect of the members.

Am I right in thinking that the officials get more than one vote? If so, this further multiplies the odds over normal club members who only get a small fraction of a single vote. The fraction being the reciprocal of the number of members in their club. As for country members, well they are totally disregarded in an unfair manner.

Surely the officials can see that it is in everyone's interest to move towards one man one vote? They might just need to work a little bit harder though, in getting their point of view across to members prior to important votes. If this had been done for the NFC for example, everything would have been settled now with no disgruntled members. They are running the organisation on behalf of the members. Why don't they do what's best for the membership and unilaterally move to one member one vote?

That's my point of view and rant over.

Edited By Gary Manuel on 11/01/2017 17:34:02

john stones 111/01/2017 17:42:54
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Posted by Gary Manuel on 11/01/2017 17:30:17:

BMFA are generally doing a great job as far as I can see. I'm happy to pay the current subs - especially with what's looming.

They just need to listen to their members re proportional representation and move into the current century to get the full support and respect of the members.

Am I right in thinking that the officials get more than one vote? If so, this further multiplies the odds over normal members who only get a a small fraction of a single vote. The fraction being the reciprocal of the number of members in the club. As for country members, well they are totally disregarded in an unfair manner.

Surely the officials can see that it is in everyone's interest to move towards one man one vote? They might just need to work a little bit harder though, in getting their point of view across to members prior to important votes. If this had been done for the NFC for example, everything would have been settled now with no disgruntled members.

That's my point of view and rant over.

I believe fellows have 5 votes if a card vote is called ?

The BMFA got it's point of view across re NFC at your club, you played a part in ensuring it.wink and communication has improved i think.

OMOV ? yep me too on big decisions.

John

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator11/01/2017 20:34:41
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Posted by Doug Campbell on 11/01/2017 13:42:39:
Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/01/2017 21:13:56:
Posted by Rob Buckley on 10/01/2017 20:51:54:

If you're an LMA member, you get LMA insurance. The same as the BMFA. Neither association is a 'closed shop' despite what some are seemingly desperate to believe.

Well, I can't speak about LMA - I have no membership experience - but I can comment on the BMFA and whether it is effectively a "closed shop" or not.

I wasn't going to raise this matter - but as it has already been raised I will.

Like many in the UK I live in a fairly crowded part of the world. There is not space for a new flying club. Also, note that our local authority does not allow modelling flying in our parks or on our beaches. So, if you are to fly RC models you need to join one of the existing clubs. There isn't really another way.

Within 1 hours drive of my house there are two clubs. Both are BMFA Affliated clubs. Now, the BMFA have a rule - for a club to have affliated status all of its members (no exceptions!) must hold BMFA membership.

So, in practice, if I am to fly RC models I have to be a member of BMFA - i have no real choice. If I was not a member - I couldn't join either of these clubs and so I wouldn't be able to follow my hobby. Whether I believe it is a splendid organisation or not - in practical terms I have to join the BMFA.

Please explain to me how that is not effectively a "closed shop"?

BEB

Utter rubbish BEB. You choose where you live. You cant blame the BMFA because your two local clubs probably democratically voted to affiliate to the Bmfa. This is just sour grapes. If you feel that strongly about it form your own club and approach the council. If you get a site from them you will probably find they insist on bmfa insurance as councils know it provides the level of cover required. You might like to research the home office guidance for the byelaw banning the flying of model aircraft. " the purpose of this byelaw is not to ban the flying of model aircraft completely in the borough but to restrict it to suitable sites" You might get somewhere with the right approach

Well Mr Campbell - you certainly know how to be rude don't you? I would point out that my post does not attack anybody - not BMFA, not the council, not the clubs.Its a pity you can't follow my example.

All I do is simply observe it as a personally perception, or are you another one that sees it his role in life to tell me what my perceptions should be? That seems to be popular in some quarters!

BEB

Keith Lomax12/01/2017 10:24:51
97 forum posts
Posted by john stones 1 on 11/01/2017 17:42:54:
Posted by Gary Manuel on 11/01/2017 17:30:17:

BMFA are generally doing a great job as far as I can see. I'm happy to pay the current subs - especially with what's looming.

They just need to listen to their members re proportional representation and move into the current century to get the full support and respect of the members.

Am I right in thinking that the officials get more than one vote? If so, this further multiplies the odds over normal members who only get a a small fraction of a single vote. The fraction being the reciprocal of the number of members in the club. As for country members, well they are totally disregarded in an unfair manner.

Surely the officials can see that it is in everyone's interest to move towards one man one vote? They might just need to work a little bit harder though, in getting their point of view across to members prior to important votes. If this had been done for the NFC for example, everything would have been settled now with no disgruntled members.

That's my point of view and rant over.

I believe fellows have 5 votes if a card vote is called ?

The BMFA got it's point of view across re NFC at your club, you played a part in ensuring it.wink and communication has improved i think.

OMOV ? yep me too on big decisions.

John

Yes, that is right, Fellows (of whom there are around 30 still alive) get 5 votes on a card vote at a general meeting (EGM or AGM). Other "officials" only get a vote at these meetings only if they are also representing a club, so may have no vote at all.

Prior to OMOV being implemented for the annual elections, Fellows also used to get 5 votes in those.

The rationale behind this is that the constitutional membership of the SMAE Ltd is the clubs and fellows. As a club needs a minimum of five members to affiliate, and clubs get one vote for each affiliated member, this gives a fellow the same voting power as the smallest clubs.

In practice, this has minimal effect because card votes are very rare, and then even if all fellows participate in the vote and all vote the same way, they still only have the same voting strength as a large club.

In other circumstances:

- at Area meetings, votes are only cast by clubs (one vote per club irrespective of size) and fellow get no vote unless they are representing a club (and even Area officers only get a vote if representing a club).

- at BMFA council meetings, it is one vote per member of that council, irrespective of whether or not a fellow. However all members of Full Council must be either a fellow or a member of a club

- at Technical Committee meetings it is one vote per member of that committee.

Gary Manuel12/01/2017 10:59:51
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Thanks for clarifying the voting process Keith.

Keith Lomax17/01/2017 11:49:19
97 forum posts

Just to give you all an update regarding the filing of the accounts at Companies House (CH).

They were sent by post in December, but not loaded by CH to their website. A second set was sent last week together with the proof of postage for the first set, which has been accepted by CH and is now uploaded - with no penalty charge.

I was told that, unfortunately, they do not accept a scanned PDF electronically - if you wish to upload electronically you apparently have to retype the accounts into their form, which is not a practical solution.

Pete Willbourn17/01/2017 12:16:08
474 forum posts
259 photos

one or two people mentioned "Why" ??

With our club it goes back years and years , When some of us were Smae , Map and "covered by our house insurance".

The covered by "my house insurance" bothered us as a club because it was so wooly and we were never sure the members were Really insured ,So we made the simple rule to join the Bmfa for its insurance , any other benefits were a "bonus " we lost the odd member but 99% enrolled .

As we fly on private ground , the landlord needed proof of insurance and this was the easy way out , and still is after many years

cheers

Keith Lomax17/01/2017 13:57:16
97 forum posts
Posted by Pete Willbourn on 17/01/2017 12:16:08:

one or two people mentioned "Why" ??

With our club it goes back years and years , When some of us were Smae , Map and "covered by our house insurance".

The covered by "my house insurance" bothered us as a club because it was so wooly and we were never sure the members were Really insured ,So we made the simple rule to join the Bmfa for its insurance , any other benefits were a "bonus " we lost the odd member but 99% enrolled .

As we fly on private ground , the landlord needed proof of insurance and this was the easy way out , and still is after many years

cheers

Going back about 20 years, the house policy that I had at the time included cover. When I looked into it the liability was £20k. At the time the BMFA cover was, I think, £2m.

John Lee17/01/2017 15:34:40
413 forum posts
28 photos

I was fortunate to fly at a friend's club in Canada in 2015 & when I produced my BMFA cover note showing £25,000,000 indemnity I got the reaction 'Wow! that's impressive, our max is CAN$7,500,000' (that's about £4.6Million)

Cuban817/01/2017 17:15:57
1513 forum posts
1 photos

Some time ago my club had a problem at our field (not an accident) that might potentially have cost the club upwards of £10000 to remedy (I'm not going into details) . On contacting BMFA, we were told that our club insurance would cover us for any losses that we may incur. As it turned out the matter was resolved (highly unexpected) by a third party without us claiming on the insurance, or at any cost to the club itself.

Nice to know that an issue that came totally out of the blue and that could have done for us financially, if it had gone another way, would have been covered by BMFA club insurance. One pays one's money etc etc...........

john stones 117/01/2017 17:29:14
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I think very few would disagree with the worth of the insurance, that's not what sets the threads off though, usually someones gruntles been dissed crook

John

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