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Design & Build FW 200 Condor / Syndicato

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Robert Parker12/11/2016 17:30:13
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

Having cleared my building bench, I was all set to start building my next project, the TN Sunderland, then looking at my Airfix kit of the Sunderland the box art depicts a Sunderland in conflict with a FW Condor, then this idea came in to my head. Having built a Stirling from scratch then why not have a go at the Condor.

After some browsing on the web plenty of pictures were downloaded along with some 3 view drawings, I also purchased a 1/72 kit as well.

Looking at my downloaded material and the 1/72nd kit I can see that this project will be challenging as well as making a compromise with the undercarriage arrangement, metalwork is not my strong point.

condor2.jpg

I fancy a civilian plane for a change having made a few bombers recently I felt like a change and something different.

fw200-ga.1b fus sections.jpg

The full size had a wingspan of 32.85m and a length of 23.46m. I wanted a wingspan of around 72" as it is a good size to transport / store and fly. Having crunched a few numbers I arrived at a scale of 1/18th that would give a wingspan of 73", which makes scaling up from the 1/72nd kit easy as all the numbers will be multiplied by 4.

So we have a wingspan of 73" a length of 51 1 /2" and a target weight of 8lbs to 9lbs

Functions: 6

Power train: 4 x Turnigy 2830-11 1000kv with Plushy 30Amp ESC's and 8x4 props (subject to design issues). Each motor will give 300 Watts giving a total of 1200 Watts.

Today, my wife was working so I had 6 hours to make a start on the design.

dsc09082.jpg

I'm doing this the old fashioned way and straight on to paper

dsc09084.jpg

So after 5 hours I have a basic fuselage with formers. The bottom drawing is the side view and above the plastic model is the plan view with half an elevator and I have made a start on the cross sections which have not come out too clearly. I took a bit of thinking on how to set out the outline but I drew around the plastic kit and put a datum line from the centre of the nose to the end of the fuselage then using the calipers measured the distance above and below the datum line and with a little help from some spruce and my son we joined all of the reference points. Still a lot of work to do on the fuselage but a start has been made.

Construction of the model will be balsa and ply using a combination of sheet and planking for the fuselage with the wings being fully sheeted in the centre section and an open structure on the outer panels.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Colin Leighfield12/11/2016 18:02:42
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5275 forum posts
2060 photos

All the ingredients for a great flier Robert, but you're right about the undercarriage. Without that amount of movement fore and aft it might have c of g issues as well! I'm sure you'll find the right compromise though.

Alan Gorham_12/11/2016 20:02:26
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314 forum posts
22 photos

Robert, great idea for a seldom built model.

One thing, I think your power allowance is way, way over the top. In my experience of electric multi engine scale models, you need way less than 100W/lb power loading, but you are aiming for more than 100W/lb.

That means you are spending more than you need on batteries and escs and possibly motors.

At the very least you could look to prop down - I think scale diameter props would be significantly smaller than the 8" ones you are proposing?

For illustration, here's three of my models that are more than adequately powered.

100" Lancaster 45W/lb

73" Beaufort 79W/lb

792 Halifax 70W/lb

To be honest they all have an excessive amount of power, but I use the battery weights to help achieve balance.

Food for thought?

colerne2011 384.jpgcolerne2011 217.jpg

2411 copy.jpg

eflightray12/11/2016 20:03:44
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378 forum posts
93 photos

If it helps, I found a build on a German RC site of a 2 metre Condor --

**LINK**

Hopefully there is a way of translating the German to English.

Ray.

Robert Parker13/11/2016 23:11:49
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Thanks for your comments guys.

Colin, Yes, I did have something in mind but after today's flying or attempts to fly with my other models I need to rethink my design, with the connecting shaft between the retract unit and the main undercarriage. I used 5mm piano wire but this seems to soft for the forces it has to endure even on a gentle landing.

Alan, what fantastic models you have, Yes I might rethink the power train having flown electric for the first time (I'm normally an IC flier), today in over twenty years. although the motors I had in mind are not that expensive but as you say it's the batteries that cost.

Eflightray, A very interesting build blog which has given me some ideas and even though written in German,a picture paints a thousand words. Food for thought.

Once again thank you

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker19/11/2016 16:15:48
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

Just spent 5 hours working on the wing drawing, not as difficult as I thought for the basic outline, I need to spent a little time thinking about the wing / nacelle layout and also the undercarriage construction and operation. The undercarriage layout will determine where I position the main spar in the wing, so for the moment I have left it out.

Just by coincidence the nacelle diameter is exactly the same as my Wellington bomber I made earlier in the summer 78mm, in which I used hand soap bottles. Now that's a stoke of luck.

dsc08883.jpg

I'll have to use 7" props as the distance between the nacelles is 7 3/4" and the same from the fuselage.

dsc09147.jpg

The inner nacelles are very long at 160mm in front of the leading edge on the original aircraft the main gear retracted into the section in front of the leading edge.

On looking at my three view drawings I noticed that the top of the inner section of the wing is flat which will making the easier as I will not need to angle the ribs housing the nacelles as I had to do on the Stirling.

dsc09148.jpg

The whole wing,

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker11/12/2016 12:09:06
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

I have done a bit more drawing and a lot of thinking and I am now happy with the compromise I've made with the undercarriage. I was hoping to have the retracts rotating forwards but this would not work trying to keep the axle point in line with the leading edge of the wing as per full size, so I have had to go for a rearwards retract and angle it slightly to get everything to work. I even removed a retract unit from my Stirling which has now been repaired, and made a temporary leg and operated the unit over the drawing and it just fits.

dsc09154.jpg

Now having sorted out the retracts I can now position the main spars on the drawing

dsc09155.jpg

I have also drawn the tailpane and elevators and following on from my Stirling repairs I have added a spar top and bottom just to add a bit of strength.

dsc09156.jpg

I still have a way to go with the finer details of construction but it is coming along nicely.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker10/01/2017 19:55:50
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

I have not been able to do any drawing in the past few weeks, as I had an operation on my shoulder back in December and I'm in a brace / sling for a few more weeks so I'll have to be a patient patient. I have a lot of spare time on my hand/s and off work until the end of March so as soon as I can get my drawing arm working again I'll be making progress once more.

I have however, acquired, yet to be delivered, a 1/72nd model kit of the airliner version, which had slightly different nacelles than the military version, so I'll be interested to see if there any other variation between them so I can alter my drawing before I get too advanced.

One thing I have done looked at the motors and esc's as Alan suggested and found some in HK. At this moment in time it is a bit of a stab in the dark regarding AUW but aiming for around the 9 lb mark but trying for lighter.

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker18/01/2017 21:30:31
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

Well I'm getting totally frustrated, just looking at my modelling bench and not being able to do anything, but it has not stopped me working a few problems out and working out how I'm going to approach the build.

Firstly, I have worked out the CoG using an online calculator that I was able to submit data for a two panel wing, when looking along the wing drawing it almost reminds me of an early glider style, bearing in mind that this aircraft was designed and built in the inter-war years in which time the German aircraft producers were building a lot of gliders at the time due to sanctions put on them after the Great War, the CoG was further back than I anticipated but looking at the wing shape with the swept back outer panels it is understandable. Whilst on the web calculator I had a shock with the wing loading with my guesstimate of 9lbs this came out as 45oz/sqft ouch. To get this down to a more realistic 26 oz/sqft the weight will be 6 1/2 lbs!!! Like me a diet is called for. I know the 9 lbs was a guesstimate but based on my Sterling.

The FW200 has a wing plan similar to the Lancaster, my FW wing has 4sq feet of wing area and so does my TN Lancaster, whilst my Sterling has 6 sq feet of wing area, so 30% increase in area.

Therefore, I looked over my drawings and made notes on what could be made lighter, the wings I reduced the main spars from 9 x 9 to 6 x 6 spruce and to add lightening holes in the ribs, use less lite ply in the nacelles with the exception of the inners, omit the full wing sheeting on the outer panels and add cappings to the ribs to form an open structure, reduce by one size thickness the sheeting to the nacelles to 3/32nd and reduce the ribs to 1/16th on the outer panels. With the fuselage I had a re-think on the design which I had intended to do the same as I had for the Stirling which was a monocoque design, I will add stringers and for the upper section use a wrap around sheet, instead of using 1/2 sheet for the corners the bottom might remain the same as I had only planned to use 1/4 sheet. The tailplane LE to bed reduced down to 1/4 down from 3/8. I still need to think about the fin and rudder design still not happy yet with this and finally worked on a way to access the esc's in the nacelles without having to make any hatches in the nacelles, a cunning plan if it works.

I have decided to build the fuselage in two halves split down the middle, left and right sides.

Taking a look at the hardware or the known weight, this comes out at 2 3/4lbs, so that it leaves me with 3 3/4 - 4 1/4 lbs for the airframe, covering and paint working on 6 1/2 -7 lbs.

The hardware is as follows (not cast in stone),

Turnigy motors esc's and props, LiPo 3s 5000, E-flite retacts oleos + wheels,

Servos: Turnigy 225MG (2no), Turnigy 113MG (5No) and Corona 239 wing servos (2no). I usually use Hitec servos but looking at the torque, weight and price these give a great weight saving.

Any one had any bad experiences or comment on the above servos, almost seem to good to be true.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker13/02/2017 17:10:44
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

Well over  the past few days I have been complimenting my physiotherapy exercises, or to put it another way I've been back on the drawing board again. I'm allowed to move my arm a little. By doing a bit each day and not as much as I would like I have completed the drawings.

I altered the nacelles as I noticed on the earlier civilian version the nacelle tapered in just behind the cowl whilst on the later military version they were flush also the civilian version the inboard motors / nacelles were shorter.

Below are the what I've done so far.

 

dsc09330.jpg

dsc09329.jpg

dsc09331.jpg

The fin and rudder although straight forward in elevation I was a little unsure as to the section but after some thought I used one from my Chipmunk.

dsc09332.jpg

Getting the curve of the formers was a challenge, even moving my hand in an arc was painful

dsc09336.jpg

dsc09337.jpg

Nacelle formers, N1 has a plate screwed onto it to give access to each of the Esc's instead of making access hatches hopefully.

dsc09339.jpg

The shortened nacelle by 30mm and the tapered nacelle, I've managed to find some oleos that are short enough although a little on the chunky side.

dsc09340.jpg

Outer nacelles and flap

Balsa, ply and hardware ordered and received so were ready to build, hopefully.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Edited By Robert Parker on 13/02/2017 17:11:22

DaveyP13/02/2017 18:59:53
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147 forum posts
47 photos

To me that looks a very complex build, I look forward to your progress with interest thumbs up

Robert Parker13/02/2017 19:17:48
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi Dave,

I have tried to keep things as simple as I could, but yes there looks to be some interesting times to come especially with the wings and I dare say a tweek or two as I go.

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker15/02/2017 20:58:06
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

It's now time to start building.

As usual for me I'm starting with the tail feathers and using my lightest wood.

On starting the tailplane I could see that what was on paper was not practical on the building boardsad

I had drawn the hardwood braces about three quarters down the tailplane and full span. On cutting the ribs for the spars they were getting smaller and smaller so I stopped at three quarters span otherwise there would be nothing between the spars.

On gluing it all together it looked wrong so I have made a new set of ribs and adjusted the position of the spars further forward. Not the best of starts and I'll make it again tomorrow. Thankfully not a lot of timber wasted.

dsc09343.jpg

Tailplane MKI

However, the fin and rudder are coming along nicely

dsc09344.jpg

At present, I intend to fit the fin into the tailplane and notch around the TE.

I have started to fine tune the fuselage formers to get the curves symmetrical on the top of the fuselage, a problem with freehand curves, and I am now happy with the results on paper. Hope this comes out on the fuselage as she has some nice curves I hope I can replicate them well enough.

Tomorrow will be a better day and I hope the little hick-up of today was just that.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker17/02/2017 16:48:04
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

Tailplane MKII is well underway as is the fuselage.

dsc09346.jpg

That looks much better

dsc09345.jpg

The completed fin and rudder only 22g that not too bad considering the size

dsc09347.jpg

Left and right fuselage sides all formers marked on 1/8" x 48" long balsa sheet

dsc09350.jpg

I started off by pinning down the half stringers (1/4 x 1/8 x 48" then pinning the formers in place dry for a trial fit, then added the main longeron (1/4 x 1/4 x 48" then I placed the secondary longeron on the top outside curve to marked out it's position. I wanted to see how / where it would best fit.

Then glue them all in position and fitted the elevator snake (overlong) So far looking good.

dsc09351.jpg

Fuselage side added and bottom sheeting added to the tailplane. I have also made the elevators these have a 1/16th core with riblets on both sides.

dsc09352.jpg

Looking from underneath the Condors curves are beginning to show

This is far as I have got today, waiting for the glue to dry.

Tomorrow, I'll lift this side off the board and start the other side.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Edited By Robert Parker on 17/02/2017 16:48:29

Edited By Robert Parker on 17/02/2017 16:49:48

Colin Leighfield18/02/2017 06:34:21
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5275 forum posts
2060 photos

Coming on nicely. Very therapeutic Robert!

Robert Parker19/02/2017 15:04:00
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Colin, I hope my physiotherapist will be proud of all this additional exercise I'm doing.

Must admit when I was planing and sanding down the fin and tailplane that was painful.

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker19/02/2017 15:52:08
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

I have made the second fuselage side this morning by flipping over the plan and applying a coat of baby oil making it become transparent and then building over it.

Fingers crossed I'll have two sides that match up. We'll find out next time.

Whilst waiting for the glue to dry I have been thinking ahead to finishing the model. I fancy the Aluminium / Black scheme as I have shown in my opening post. I have been thinking about the covering and come up with a some options.

Option A. Tissue and Dope. My preferred option BUT it comes at a cost, Smell, which means working outside and getting grief from SWMBO plus waiting for suitable weather.

Option B. Tissue and Poly C. Never used poly c before and I cannot seem to find a stockist but from what I have read on other threads this afternoon it can be used indoors.

Option C. Tissue and EZ Dope, again never used this. Is this poly c? or something different again?

Option D. Tissue and water based varnish. Again, I have not used this method before but have read a few threads this afternoon.

Just a few thoughts to mull over a damp Sunday afternoon.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker21/02/2017 15:08:31
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

The fuselage is now together, which fitted almost straight off the board with just a bit of fettling here and there.

dsc09354.jpg

All nice and straight. After the glue dried I turned the fuselage over and fitted the 3/8" lower fuselage sides which had to be fitted in pieces due to the curvature of the sides whilst still in the jig . I cheated with these and used cyano

dsc09395.jpg

Tail wheel assembly fitted and I added a snake for the tail wheel. I have fitted the first plank and cut out the profile of the tail plane, since this shot I added 1/4" balsa to the cut outs to increase the gluing area of the tail plane.

dsc09397.jpg

Those servos look lost in the cavernous fuselage, they are mini servos and not standard ones. I used these to keep the weight down just 13g each the three together are still lighter than 1 standard servo.

I used a separate servos for the tail wheel and rudder.

dsc09394.jpg

Positioning of the tail assembly. All lined up and check dimensions taken and ready to glue in place.

In the end I opted to scribe the fin over the tail and not build it in to the tail plane. I did think of using carved block for the fillets between the tail plane and the fin but having seen it I will plank instead, this should help keep the weight down at the rear end. I still will need a block at the very rear but this will be small and tapering to nothing almost.

Later on I'm going to glue the tail assembly in place and start cutting all of the planking from 48" sheet balsa.

Tomorrow, planking.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Robert Parker25/02/2017 11:50:17
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666 forum posts
925 photos

Hi All,

I have had a very productive past couple of days.

The fuselage is completed to a level I need the wings ready to finish off the wing seat cutouts. I have made a start on the wing outer panels. Does not sound much summed up in one sentence.

dsc09409.jpg

Tail group epoxied in place

dsc09411.jpg

Planking completed and looking like a hedgehog with just about my entire pin collection. I used balsa cement for the butt joints and alphatic glue on the formers.

dsc09412.jpg

Bottom sheeting in place and I realised after the glue had dried that I had not fitted the guide tubes for the closed loop system oops.

dsc09413.jpg

Battery box formed, a snug fit for a 3s 6000mAh with plenty of scope forwards and backwards room so I can get the CoG right without adding any weight, hopefully.

dsc09414.jpg

Nose block carved from laminated 1/2" sheet, tack glued for now. When I check the CoG if it is too nose heavy I can hollow it out if needed. I need to cut out for the cockpit glazing. Also, the landing light was housed in the nose, if I can source /alter / adapt one to fit. I need 3/4" diameter.

dsc09449.jpg

To get it this level hurt a lot, my arm not used to sideways movement of my plane and sanding block. A case of little and often. She is 5" wide at the widest point

dsc09452.jpg

Bottom sheeting blended into the sides

dsc09453.jpg

Tail end all sanded and shaped, got a bit too carried away with the razor plane, tail block still to do.

dsc09415.jpg

Fus set aside and on to the wings, ribs for the outer panels

dsc09417.jpg

First out panel, the clamps are holding the halving joint where the spars reduce down from 1/4 x 1/4" to 1/4 x 1/8".

Coming along very nicely so far smiley

Next is to finish off this panel and make the other panel.

That's all for now

Regards

Robert

Percy Verance25/02/2017 12:47:55
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5641 forum posts
108 photos

Robert

Poly C is - as far as I'm aware - only available from RC World. It's good stuff, and I can recommend it.......

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