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Electric Cars.

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Nigel R16/04/2018 13:48:18
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I'm like C8, older cars for me in large part due to budget; carefully picked, one hopes, to avoid any major repairs for the duration while I own them. At present I run a 13 year old car bought last year. My wife's is 15 years old, bought two years ago. We won't be electrified for a long time yet. A hybrid, perhaps, providing its battery is viable. We shall see. Much as I might like to drive an example of the latest technology, I won't be doing so.

On the purely electric front, within my reach, there are already some very viable electric vehicles out there, but for they only have two wheels and a 300W motor. As a bonus I could (safety concerns aside) charge them at my desk and they won't challenge the electric grid. On the other hand the weather can make the al fresco travelling unpleasant and they aren't fast and don't have a huge range without extra batteries (although carrying a spare or two is far from impossible).

A chap at work here is driving a standard mk3 escort, a basic model, unmodified. Possibly the greenest driver on the entire (and quite large) site.

Too much politics in this topic (not in this thread here, in the wider world) to see what will be, with any clarity.

Erfolg16/04/2018 18:48:48
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I also think there is a lot to applaud with respect to extending the life of cars and many other domestic items. Specifically with the view to ensuring that resources are not squandered.

One of my beefs with my Lipos is that they are essentially a consumable, seldom lasting much beyond a year or so. It is noticeable that the battery guarantees for cars frequently come with caveats, with respect to age, usable quoted ratings and mileages covered. Being mean, if it were not for the cost of replacement electric car batteries, I would perhaps be less concerned due to the low amounts of elements in their construction.

Unfortunately in many respects we are living in an age, where many items are made from the out set to be disposable. Indeed, authorities in general tend to discourage repair, to the extent that it is often a requirement that only certain persons can repair or test items. Yet in the past, there was very little evidence that there was an issue, and it is probable that there is no good measure that shows any true benefit.

On the other hand, some technologies move so quickly, such as Tvs, our radio sets, that how can you resist the latest gizmo?

Don Fry16/04/2018 19:55:43
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Going full circle, last week I was raiding Lidl for wines in their sales. Wonderful wine sellers in France.

And there was a Renault ? van on the car park, electric only. Now I can't accurately say what the make was, why would I be interested who made the box on wheels. But the owner/driver/plumber says, why not, it does him between jobs in a mid sized town, if a bit short, the customer lets you plug into their house,( mind you are curing their flood), and it's cheap to buy,( subsidy), cheap to run, ( no fuel duty at this stage of the transition). Happy bloke.

Also a very nice taste in Medoc wines.

Percy Verance18/04/2018 07:07:40
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Quite Don.

It may have been a Renault. Certainly NIssan have a mid sized electric van available to go now.

It seems VW have big plans for the EV market., both commercial and private. VW's CEO - Mattias Muller - has said that he intends VW to have "at least" 16 EV capable production sites worldwide within the next 4 years. And that the company will also launch a new electric car "virtually every month" from 2019. These will include both pure electric and PHEV types. VW are also to beging offering charging wall-boxes, priced at 300 Euros (about £260) from 2020.

And yes, I think it's probably quite feasable that a customer would allow a quick 30 to 60 minute top-up charge. After all, they don't usually complain about supplying the power for tools. Certainly, such a charge would get you to the next job......

Percy Verance18/04/2018 07:07:42
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Quite Don.

It may have been a Renault. Certainly NIssan have a mid sized electric van available to go now.

It seems VW have big plans for the EV market., both commercial and private. VW's CEO - Mattias Muller - has said that he intends VW to have "at least" 16 EV capable production sites worldwide within the next 4 years. And that the company will also launch a new electric car "virtually every month" from 2019. These will include both pure electric and PHEV types. VW are also to beging offering charging wall-boxes, priced at 300 Euros (about £260) from 2020.

And yes, I think it's probably quite feasable that a customer would allow a quick 30 to 60 minute top-up charge. After all, they don't usually complain about supplying the power for tools. Certainly, such a charge would get you to the next job......

Percy Verance18/04/2018 07:07:43
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Quite Don.

It may have been a Renault. Certainly NIssan have a mid sized electric van available to go now, along with LDV and Mercedes.

It seems VW have big plans for the EV market., both commercial and private. VW's CEO - Matthias Muller - has said that he intends VW to have "at least" 16 EV capable production sites worldwide within the next 4 years. And that the company will also launch a new electric car "virtually every month" from 2019. These will include both pure electric and PHEV types. VW are also to begin offering charging wall-boxes, priced at 300 Euros (about £260) from 2020.

And yes, I think it's probably quite feasable that a customer would allow a quick 30 to 60 minute top-up charge. After all, they don't usually complain about supplying the power for tools. Certainly, such a charge would get you to the next job......

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 18/04/2018 07:10:08

Rich too18/04/2018 08:18:12
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Posted by Cuban8 on 16/04/2018 11:05:11:
Posted by cymaz on 16/04/2018 06:28:28:

I simply have don’t the the financial to buy a new car. The most I can afford is £4000-£5000. And change them when they cost more than £700 to repair This leaves me with cars of 5-6 years old. I shan’t be driving an electric car any time in the next 20 years!

Which brings us rather neatly & full circle to my original posting that started all this.................I think that a whole section of society risks becoming pushed out of benefitting from cheap personal transport. Perhaps that is what is intended?

Section? You mean most of society. And with such a huge loss in customer numbers, how will the manufacturers make that work? And with current public transport? Electrification for the masses is a long way off. Not practical and too damn expensive.

Erfolg18/04/2018 12:21:05
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I have read again that Tesla have called a halt to production. The company has been producing approximately 2,000 cars a week, which is 500 cars lower than target. The reasons given for the 5 day closure are ambiguous to an outsider such as myself, siting excess automation, through to supply chain and integration issues.

From my perspective it does suggest that the switch to electric car production is beset with issues that the present mass car producers are investigating by limited car production.

Yesterday I was looking at two electric vehicles, a BMW i8 and i3. Wow did I like the look of the i8, although not the price of £118,000 with extras or £112,000 as standard. A second hand i8 was for sale at just shy of £80,000, although a deal could be done, for a car less than 1 year old. A number of aspects put me of, the first was although I could get in, without to much effort, getting out taxed this old man. More realistically, this particular hybrid has a road tax of £400. Secondly was that the service costs were not immediately available. The build quality is truly exceptional, being mainly made from both Carbon Fibre and Aluminium.

As for the i3, BMW must not want to sell this car, it is so pig ugly, even with a fancy paint job, it has been hit vigoursly with the ugly stick. The price is some what disturbing, in that it is £25,000 for a very ordinary car.

I asked about battery replacements, in both cases a big deal issue. Although I was assured that it would not be an issue in the first 3 years. Thereafter, I asked questionably. This is a BMW sir, I would be surprised if there were an issue. Yes, I am sure you are correct, but if the unlikely were to occur, how much would it cost for a new battery and to have it fitted? I can find out for you sir, to-date no one has asked. I was in my stride now, what is the service requirement for the vehicle. Again non committal, although a offer was made to obtain the information, which I declined. After leaving I did think, the sales staff were not as informed with respect to the i3 in particular, when compared to say a X6, where the worker who fastened the front passengers seat into position would be known. The i8 seemed far better value for money, I would expect something of a loss leader, the i3 left me cold. I did suggest to the salesman, that BMW need to try harder with the styling to get me interested. Never did discuss range, as the lack of information of true running costs was a major deterrent to me. It was also suggested that efforts to reduce weight was intended to ensure dynamic performance with other family BMW vehicles. I read this as code for something.

Edited By Erfolg on 18/04/2018 12:23:38

Robert Cracknell18/04/2018 12:39:42
37 forum posts

This push for electric cars is all very laudable but there are some logistics that still have to be addressed. For example how do you charge your car if you live in an eighth floor flat with communal parking or in one of the many terraced streets with on street parking? In both cases you are never sure of the same parking space and would the local hooligans treat a cable trailing over the pavement with respect - I doubt not!

Frank Skilbeck18/04/2018 14:17:11
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Posted by Erfolg on 18/04/2018 12:21:05:

I have read again that Tesla have called a halt to production. The company has been producing approximately 2,000 cars a week, which is 500 cars lower than target. The reasons given for the 5 day closure are ambiguous to an outsider such as myself, siting excess automation, through to supply chain and integration issues.

From my perspective it does suggest that the switch to electric car production is beset with issues that the present mass car producers are investigating by limited car production.

Edited By Erfolg on 18/04/2018 12:23:38

Teslas problems have got nothing to do with it being an electric car, but more Tesla are still learning how to do mass production. If you read some of the US forums some of the quality issues are to do with the fit of panels etc etc. something Nissan, Ford, VW, Toyota, BMW etc etc sorted years ago. It's a bit like saying I struggle to do a good F3A schedule compared to somebody who has been competing for 10 years.

Nissan are producing the Leaf in Japan, US and UK, and they don't seem to have any issues hitting production targets. As for the BMW I3, it was the 2nd best selling electric car in Europe last year, the Renault Zoe was 1st, you can't accuse it of not being a bit different, not to everybodies taste admittedly (but I do like the looks).

Percy Verance18/04/2018 14:52:46
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The BMW i3 is indeed an ugly creation. Fallen out of the ugly tree, hitting every branch on the way down.......

Tesla's production hiccups are virtually everyday happenings, or so it seems.

Robert

In time there will doubtless be conductive charging available. I understand this is already in use in some parts of the world already. No wires trailing over pavements etc. The charging cable is buried in the road (or where-ever) and you simply park over it. There is also the possibility - albeit presently distant - of *charging* roads, with the charging cable buried in the road. These offer charging while you drive along them. There are already facilities such as this in South Korea and Sweden. It may simply be that people whom live in high rise buildings etc are just unable to charge an electric vehicle at or near their home, in the same way they cannot have a lawn or a greenhouse. It may mean that if they do choose to own an EV, they may have to resort to using public charging facilities.

Frank

Tesla better get a grip on the idea of mass production fairly soon, as they have half a million outstanding orders for the Model 3. And that's after 40,000 customers cancelled after not wanting to wait....... VW could show them how it's done Frank. Their EV strategy - named Roadmap E - sees them planning to launch and market up to 50 pure EV's and 30 plug-in hybrids across the whole VW group range by 2025...... Indeed, VW's CEO has said that they will launch a new electric car "virtually every month" from 2019.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 18/04/2018 15:22:36

Rich too18/04/2018 19:52:35
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Posted by Percy Verance on 18/04/2018 14:52:46:

The BMW i3 is indeed an ugly creation. Fallen out of the ugly tree, hitting every branch on the way down.......

Tesla's production hiccups are virtually everyday happenings, or so it seems.

Robert

In time there will doubtless be conductive charging available. I understand this is already in use in some parts of the world already. No wires trailing over pavements etc. The charging cable is buried in the road (or where-ever) and you simply park over it. There is also the possibility - albeit presently distant - of *charging* roads, with the charging cable buried in the road. These offer charging while you drive along them. There are already facilities such as this in South Korea and Sweden. It may simply be that people whom live in high rise buildings etc are just unable to charge an electric vehicle at or near their home, in the same way they cannot have a lawn or a greenhouse. It may mean that if they do choose to own an EV, they may have to resort to using public charging facilities.

Frank

Tesla better get a grip on the idea of mass production fairly soon, as they have half a million outstanding orders for the Model 3. And that's after 40,000 customers cancelled after not wanting to wait....... VW could show them how it's done Frank. Their EV strategy - named Roadmap E - sees them planning to launch and market up to 50 pure EV's and 30 plug-in hybrids across the whole VW group range by 2025...... Indeed, VW's CEO has said that they will launch a new electric car "virtually every month" from 2019.

Edited By Percy Verance on 18/04/2018 15:22:36

So what you really mean is that now we have created a car owning culture, overnight we are supposed to reverse tha t trend and expect the average Joe t9 get the bus...

Percy Verance18/04/2018 20:48:55
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Not at all. You'll still be able to use a combustion engined vehicle after 2040 if you wish. You just won't be able to buy a new one......

I should imagine if you bought one in,say, 2038, you might still drive it around until it expires.....although just how much choice you'll have regarding new combustion engined vehicles in 2038 I wouldn't like to say.  

I couldn't comment regarding getting a bus. I live in a small village out in the sticks, and there are no busses........

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 18/04/2018 20:57:08

Rich too19/04/2018 04:47:07
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exactly. good luck to the people in your village that can't afford to buy a brand new car.

Percy Verance19/04/2018 05:42:02
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And why might this be an electric car issue?

Obviously I can't speak for all those whom choose to live in the village, but presumably they were perhaps aware that when they moved here, the transport links wouldn't be the same as living in a busy town?

Who knows, maybe they're happy with that?   And why should they need to buy a brand new car?

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 19/04/2018 05:48:09

cymaz19/04/2018 06:22:37
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People need cars because of several factors.

  • Non local jobs..if you find work, it’s usually a commute
  • Poorly integrated local transport in rural areas. Our train station is 2 miles outside Bodmin. The shuttle bus leaves the station 10 mins before the train gets in !
  • Having not been around at the time( new born )...the Beeching Cuts must have started a cultural shift that we still see today.
Trevor Crook19/04/2018 07:51:11
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Percy, there's a good new video on the Fully Charged Youtube channel about the Jag I-Pace. I think its a stunning looking car, and although out of my budget it seems good value at £60,000. I found some of the technical stuff very interesting, particularly the use of a heat pump to warm the batteries to their optimum temperature in the winter. Jonny Smith also makes the same point as Frank does above, that Tesla are still learning how to manufacture cars.

Regarding battery life, most of my lipos last much longer than a year. The batteries used in EVs use different chemistries anyway to achieve the best performance and life. The I-Pace uses Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt, for instance.

The BMW experience sounds like typical BMW arrogance. The potential customer should have mentioned to the salesman the recent recall on their 3-cylinder engines for big end bearing replacement, or last year's Watchdog report on premature timing chain failures. If the engineering was really good, they could offer a warranty for at least 5 years like several other manufacturers.

Trevor Crook19/04/2018 07:52:01
628 forum posts
40 photos

Percy, there's a good new video on the Fully Charged Youtube channel about the Jag I-Pace. I think its a stunning looking car, and although out of my budget it seems good value at £60,000. I found some of the technical stuff very interesting, particularly the use of a heat pump to warm the batteries to their optimum temperature in the winter. Jonny Smith also makes the same point as Frank does above, that Tesla are still learning how to manufacture cars.

Regarding battery life, most of my lipos last much longer than a year. The batteries used in EVs use different chemistries anyway to achieve the best performance and life. The I-Pace uses Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt, for instance.

The BMW experience sounds like typical BMW arrogance. The potential customer should have mentioned to the salesman the recent recall on their 3-cylinder engines for big end bearing replacement, or last year's Watchdog report on premature timing chain failures. If the engineering was really good, they could offer a warranty for at least 5 years like several other manufacturers.

Frank Skilbeck19/04/2018 07:55:20
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And round here the few electric cars seem to be owned by those living away from towns, I guess being able to charge them up at home works out better than having to make a trip to a petrol station.

I'm not sure why everybody is thinking that electric cars are only for the rich and that there will be no good 2nd hand versions. Yes some may have life limited batteries, but this can usually be tested, and with an IC engine while the engines run for 100,000 + with no problems, the main costly items will be the pollution controls and fancy gearboxes which can cost thousands to replace.

The Taxi company that has Leafs, some which have done well over 100,000 miles, reported that they had made big savings on maintenance.

Cuban819/04/2018 10:44:44
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Another downside to the wider use of electric vehicles will be the possible destruction of much of the currently very buoyant chain of small/medium size independent garages. Obviously, some will adapt successfully as they've already done by coping with the ever increasing electronic/computer complexity of modern vehicles - but will electric vehicles require as much specialist maintenance as our present IC cars?

I would say not, and then only in certain limited areas. Brakes, suspension, tyres, bodywork repairs and MOTs will all be needed by leccy cars, and even today, much of that work has been already been cornered by the likes of the large companies  such as Kwikfit, Halfords Autocentres, Formula1 etc thereby putting pressure on the independent garages and leaving them more and more, with the specialist IC engine repairs.

With hardly any IC engines around in say thirty years time, if we can believe the profits, will the highly skilled motor engineer go the same way as the expert TV repair man? (TV repairers in the old days being the 'aristocrats' of the service world).

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 19/04/2018 10:50:59

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