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Electric Cars.

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Bob Cotsford19/04/2018 11:33:47
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I wouldn't have thought that there's much call for engine or gearbox work these days, most smalll garages around here look to rely on accident repairs now. Maybe the odd clutch or track rod end change, otherwise if it's a fault it's a computer diagnosis and change the faulty sensor. Power units and drive trains will usually outlive the car's bodywork and electronics, at least that's been my recent old banger experience

 

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 19/04/2018 11:34:32

Don Fry19/04/2018 12:26:03
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I would agree with Bob, my last 200,000 miles over two vehicles is a set of ignition leads, ignition cap, a radiator, a water pump. Then we are down to the consumables like tyres and brake pads.

And we have no data to speak of that electric cars have different reliability/cost figures.

Edited By Don Fry on 19/04/2018 12:26:36

Alan Jarvis19/04/2018 13:07:26
134 forum posts
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I read somewhere that a Tesla Model 3 only has 17 moving parts. The motor only has one. An ic engine car has several thousand. Tesla does over the air software updates and diagnostics and Tesla knows what's wrong with your car before you do. Highlighted by a recent Tesla crash when Tesla could say the vehicle was on autopilot at the time.

Percy Verance19/04/2018 13:46:40
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C8

Re: small independant garages.

Obviously I have no idea of the situation everywhere, but the two guys (father & son) who run the garage in the next village to me have both been on a hybrid/electric car course. I've been taking my Focus there since I bought it almost three years ago, and unlike some big dealer servicing facilities in large towns, I know I'm getting a good job done. They've been in business for 40+ years, and many locals seem to use them.

Even after 2040 there will still be enough petrol and diesel cars around to keep such places turning over for a few years. 

Alan

The problem Tesla have at the moment is that the parts aren't moving fast enough! Have you seen the Model 3 order backlog? 500,000+..........

 

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 19/04/2018 14:00:22

Don Fry19/04/2018 14:06:59
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Posted by Alan Jarvis on 19/04/2018 13:07:26:

I read somewhere that a Tesla Model 3 only has 17 moving parts. The motor only has one. An ic engine car has several thousand. Tesla does over the air software updates and diagnostics and Tesla knows what's wrong with your car before you do. Highlighted by a recent Tesla crash when Tesla could say the vehicle was on autopilot at the time.

Where do you get several thousand from Alan? Unless we are not comparing like for like, i.e. A bearing is a moving part in one bean counters lexicon, and 30 moving parts in another's.

Alan Jarvis19/04/2018 17:55:50
134 forum posts
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How many parts are in a car engine

Thousands. From big to small it goes like this. engine block. engine head or heads. intake manifold. crankshaft, camshaft or shafts, pistons, connecting rods, connecting rod pins, attaching hardware like nuts bolts rod caps, bearings, seals, pins, gears, chains or belts, covers and their gaskets and attachment hardware. Valves, valve springs, valve seats, valve seals, rocker arms, pushrods, lifters, lifter springs, lifter cups. If you were to take an engine apart, you would have a whole can over flowing with just bolts and have pieces everywhere.

That is without the gearbox and drive system.

Alan Jarvis19/04/2018 17:57:34
134 forum posts
22 photos

A single car has about 30,000 parts, counting every part down to the smallest screws. Some of these parts are made at Toyota, but we also have lots of suppliers that make many of these parts. The 30,000 or so parts use different raw materials and different manufacturing processes.

Don Fry19/04/2018 19:21:08
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You said 17 moving parts. you have made a big list of (mostly unmoving parts). If your are bothered, answer the question, what are the seventeen moving parts. I am curious, as I can't believe that the drive trains are that different, and I can't believe that the numbers are many orders of magnitude different.

You have, in one case said a bolt is a part, but then gone to say that the electric motor is a part. Anyone who has seen an electric motor will see it's a complex amalgam of welds, glue, and magic holding its myriad of bits together.

I seem to be the spikey soul protesting against the claims of marketing departments.

But I tell you straight, 17 does not do a car down the road.

Alan Jarvis19/04/2018 20:51:32
134 forum posts
22 photos

.Tesla use electric motors that have two moving parts, and single-speed “transmissions” that have no gears. The company says its drivetrain has about 17 moving parts compared with about 500 in a conventional internal combustion drivetrain. Plus more in the ic engine. The Tesla system is virtually maintenance-free.

Don Fry20/04/2018 06:37:03
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Ok, I give in. The marketing department of Tesla is second only to the bible as a source of truth.

Percy Verance20/04/2018 06:52:14
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Trevor

As far as lipos lasting just a year or so, that certainly isn't my experience. I have several packs here I use specifically with a Multiplex Easy Star to teach others to fly. I've had the model for about 5 years or so, and I bought some of the (Multiplex branded) packs at the same time. They haven't puffed up, and still seem to perfrom ok. I do balance charge each time though, and never exceed a 1c charge rate. More often than not it's .75c

The Jag i Pace looks fantastic, and will certainly be a popular choice among executive car buyers whom wish to go green. It does wear a premium price tag, but that may change over time. Jaguar's i Pace Line Director, Ian Hoban, has stated that less costly variants of the I Pace would not present any "major technical obstacles"..............

ceejay20/04/2018 08:48:05
378 forum posts
322 photos

returning from Scotland in February we were passed on the M6 (lakes area) by what I assumed was an I Pace test car, emblazoned as it was in logo,s stating its the new I Pace and the future, now given I was at a steady 70ish, it passed at quite a "pace" surprise I commented to my wife that I hoped he had a full charge otherwise we may see him later on shoulder, it was dark, raining and cold out, sure enough some 30 mins later we passed him in the inside lane at a somewhat reduced speed, I dont mean 60/65 I mean 45/50 now I don't know why I just assumed he was saving energy,

hmmm

cj

Erfolg20/04/2018 12:03:27
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It is almost certainly correct that the differences in servicing of an electric vehicle and that of an IC will probably quite similar.

Many aspects remain quite similar, such as suspension components, brakes, stability controls, traction control and probably the need for a differential of some form.

It is tempting to say, ah, yes we have lost an engine and gearbox. Now we have a simple electric motor. We could even have regenerative braking all seen as a gain. The reality will be different, either there will be the need for a control system to control the motor, even a gear box, if electronics prove an issue in providing adequate torque at low revs. The regenerative brakes again come with their own control requirements, which almost certainly will be backed up with friction type braking. There will be a battery management system. I do not see serving disappearing any time soon, different yes, at lower cost? I would not bank on it.

As for costs of replacement electronics, could be pricey where high currents are involved.

As for the battery packs lasting forever, or even a few years, I knew one person (no longer in touch with them) who had a battery issue with I believe to be a Prius, who was quoted a good few thousand pounds to remove, supply a new battery and reconnect. At the time I was not interested, beyond, OMG, it will be few years before I am interested.

As with so much, time will tell.

Percy Verance20/04/2018 13:39:49
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Quite why that seems so shocking I'm not sure. If your timing belt lets go then it's potentially thousands of pounds to get motoring again. Timing belts can, in theory, snap at any point although they seem more prone to failure with wear/age.

None of us seem overly concerned about that.........

Perhaps the battery issue is one we'll simply have to accept, just as we do with timing belts?

ceejay

I can't fathom why the i Pace prototype driver might be saving energy while on the Lakes section of the M6, as most service areas there have EV charging facilities. The Lakes area service station on the M6 nearest to me has 8 charge points. One assumes the driver will have planned his route, and consequently probably knew this?  Perhaps he was taking a hands free call, and slowed down to concentrate on the conversation?

 

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 20/04/2018 13:59:57

Erfolg20/04/2018 16:55:58
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Perhaps he actually needed or wanted to be somewhere else, other than sat in a service station? Or could it have been the climb up to Shap had sapped all of electrons, all the free ones were not about, and the struggle to the next service area for some free ones required some caution.

As for snapped timing belts or chains, I would not expect that many just accept this as something that can happen.

The point really comes down to servicing will almost certainly be required, and that some of the electrical bits will be pricey. Will servicing be cheaper than IC cars, given that the most expensive single item on my cars service is the engine oil, which is a small fraction of the total bill, the rest being filters such as pollen, various other non engine related items, I would not count on it. But I do get a free wash and interior valet.

Edited By Erfolg on 20/04/2018 16:57:08

ken anderson.20/04/2018 16:58:32
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just announced that Nissan are going to lay off workers in the next 12 months....

ken Anderson...ne...1 motoring dept.

Percy Verance20/04/2018 17:39:05
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If the Jaguar driver was travelling South - and it appears he was if he passed ceejay returning from Scotland - then I don't see how he'd be climbing up Shap........ unless I missed something. He certainly needn't have struggled for a charge. There are 8 EV charge points on Tebay services, and several at Forton which is South of Lancaster..........

Ken

No doubt falling diesel sales have had something to do with it....... if sales are 37% down, then some of those lost sales must be Nissan cars.

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 20/04/2018 17:44:28

Frank Skilbeck20/04/2018 18:46:16
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Posted by ken anderson. on 20/04/2018 16:58:32:

just announced that Nissan are going to lay off workers in the next 12 months....

ken Anderson...ne...1 motoring dept.

Nissan make the Juke, Qashqai, Note and Leaf and Infiniti Q30 in Sunderland.

JLR have announced they are not renewing contract workers contracts too.

Erfolg20/04/2018 18:52:14
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10793 forum posts
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Ceejay? I know Killington and Tebay or the other way round. In many ways it matters little, there are a few hills to climb.

Percy Verance20/04/2018 18:57:27
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6381 forum posts
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ceejay isn't a location. It's the guy who posted earler. The Jaguar driver passed him on his return from Scotland.......

Frank

Most of the cars JLR make - Land Rover particularly - are diesel powered, so they'll feel the pinch more than some........

What appears to be happening just now is that potential buyers aren't necessarily choosing petrol over diesel. They're not buying either, preferring to hold on for now to see what happens over the next 12 to 18 months.........

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 20/04/2018 19:08:21

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