Bachem Natter

[Erfolg]

I have decided to design, if not to grand a description, a Semi Scale Bachem Natter.

 

Being an ex engineer, I have interests in those areas of design and construction, where the signpost to the future were or are less than clear. The Natter was one of those projects. Using some technologies in there infancy, designed for an operating regime less than orthodox. It could in some respects be considered a manned missile.

 

Other aircraft I would love to model is a DouglasX3, Skyrocket, Skystreak, Bell X1,2 etc all challenging aircraft.

 

I will post some pictures of a Bachem Natter later.

 

I am less than convinced that the project will be successful, or if a successful model, other than Jetex has been built. A principal issue is the small wing area, relative to the body, and the unusual control systems/methods. I will more than cheat on the wing area. I see eight is an issue, in addition to drag.

 

By the way Natter is German for an Adder or Viper. Actually pronounced as Nayter, as I cannot print the umlauts to change the sound, if yoy get my meaning

 

 

[Tony Bennett]

sounds interesting.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

One seriously challenging aeroplane....

 

BEB

[Eck]

Will you be building the vertical launch ramp as well, Erfolg?

[Tony Bennett]

built from wood and concrete if my memory serves me right.

[Erfolg]

I am not aware of any concrete Tony, there was a glide bomb with concrete wings the B&V 246.

 

You are certainly correct with respect to the use of wood, if orange boxes counts as wood. As an aircraft, the standards of construction were very low and incredibly simple.

 

In many respects the concept side stepped many of the inherent problems that were being encountered when making step changes. In the case of very high speed aircraft, that of having a competent pilot, also the issue of bring to bear a weapons system. The Bachem, took of automatically, needed no skill in landing, because the pilot baled out. With respect to the weapons system, it was simply a battery of some 30 rockets. In practice, the range, when firing was found to be far less critical than using guns or cannon. It was found that a single hit from one of these rockets could bring a heavy bomber down.

 

I came across one a "The Fantasy of Flight" Orlando, which surprised me by its small size, not withstanding the shape. Theirs is a copy, as many are.

[Tony Bennett]

sorry about the concrete, i remember a tv program about using concrete in aircraft manufacture a long time back now and i thought it was the natter.

[001]

Quite a few references to the Natter on YouTube, mainly foam models abot 4" long powered by powder rockets and animations but this one looks good!

[Erfolg]

Hi Richard

 

How much control there was on the glide, was perhaps open to conjecture. The model seemed stationary at times, but wobbling, as if about to stall, other times the sink rate seemed very high. I can imagine the RC pilot on a project such as the one shown, will have been very good. The lack of control maybe inherent to the model?

 

I have seen some jetex models of the Natter, on Youtube, no electric RC, have you? I would be very surprised if it has not been done before though.

[Erfolg]

Tony

 

There is nothing at all to be sorry about. It is perhaps somewhat surprising that concrete had not been used. Along with papier mache, all seem so obvious.

[Tim Mackey]

Mythbusters made a concrete glider.

 

Edited By Tim Mackey - Administrator on 09/05/2011 17:19:47

[Tony Bennett]

profile rc, edf

[Tony Bennett]

oh my god, i did it right first time. woo hooo

[Tony Bennett]

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Easy when you know how isn't Tony

 

BEB

[Erfolg]

Tony, that sounds one bored video operator, in the second video!

 

It certainly confirms that a profile model can fly, and fly well. The first video alarmed me, in that it finished, part way through the flight, I suspected that all did not go well with the rest of the flight.

 

I am still concerned as to the increase in drag from a body.

 

The control is similar to what I intend or intended doing, in that the controls would be on the tailplane, although i intended or intended having elevons on the trailing edge of the tailplane rather than a all moving tailplane with differential movement.

 

I have sketched out my basic design (or what passes for a design) and will shortly cut the fuselage. Photos in the next few days. In retrospect, I would go the depron way, if I could get enough at sensible prices as B&Q when they apparently stocked it.

 

Photos to follow in a few days.

 

How is the Thunderbird going Tony?

[Tony Bennett]

 

 

looking forward to the pictures.

 

[001]

As the Natter was designed to take off vertically under rocket power, intercept bombers at high speed then separate, the parts recovered by parachute, I would expect the take off and landing phases of any replica to be difficult!

(And not scale)

Unless some changes made to proportions.

 

How about a big rocket motor and inbuilt parachute recovery system?

 

 

 

 

[Erfolg]

Richard

 

Strange as it might seem, the Natter was taken of and landed as a standard airplane. This was done during the handling trials, where development aircraft were towed up behind a plane, released, flown as a glider and landed. To me it is a little surprising that the undercarriage was a tricycle type.

 

With regard to a model, I suspect it will difficult enough, to get an acceptable flying model, where it is hand launched and landed onto grass, without rocket motors.

[Tony Bennett]

you can do it.

you could do a vertical bungee style launch system.

[Simon Chaddock]

Erflog

You don't say how you intend to propel your Natter.

The way I would do it is to decide on the wing span, say 35.25" (1/4 scale).

 

The wing area of the full size is given as 51.7sgft. At 1/4 scale gives 3.23sqft.

 

Select an acceptable wing loading for hand launching, say 10oz/sqft.

 

Build it to weigh no more than 32.3oz but with a minimum of 20oz thrust to ensure it overcomes the drag of the huge fuselage compared to the wing area.

 

Do keep posting on your design progress.

[001]

For anyone who is interested, remains of the three concrete launch pads for the Natter still exist.

 

The location is marked on Google Earth, go to Jesingen and they are in a wood South East of the town just South of the E52 highway. Three blue dots link to photos.

[Erfolg]

Hi Richard

 

I have had a look, without success. Could you indicate the road name adjacent to the wood, such as the Assenweg, or is it perhaps the copse above this wood?

 

Simon, to be honest, for me design is highly iterative as a process. My first sketch was 1/12 scale. I then thought, I think I can build to this size, not sure that I will see it clearly. I then thought needs to be bigger, so i then just scaled this sketch up to 1/8, by annotation of the original drawing.

 

Having decided I can see it at 1/8, I then started to think of wing area, relative to weight. At this size I am thinking about 1kg all up weight. Again being iterative i stretched the wing span and the chord a little to get a nominal 36" span * 8" chord, a nominal 2sq feet, or 16 oz per square foot. At this level, it should fly, allows the model to become a little portly, and the issue of drag, from this big body. I can also cut the wing area down easily, if I think the model can stand it.

 

I only fly electric these days, as noise is to much of an issue. Since going electric, it is by far my preferred method of propulsion, it is just to quite, clean and I no longer have a flight box, other than a few odds ad ends in the boot of the car.. I do run my models indoors without any comment at all from my wife. When I used glow and occasional diesel, and ran the models outside to set up, my wife would fly out (almost a joke) and demand to know when I would be finished and do not leave any slime behind, to walk into the house, and do not drip anything from that smally thing (model).

 

A good part why I show my build process is to get feed back, some of it as to date on this thread. Normally I get a lot less than I hope for. In this case it is about "Blue foam Bodies", as this will be the first full body made from foam, for me. I am sure that others will have done more and have hard learnt lessons to pass on, if they can be reached. The project was originally conceived as a Me109/209H, quick build foam body I chickened out when thinking I need more experience etc, under my belt.

Edited By Erfolg on 10/05/2011 11:27:54

[001]

Erfolg, there is a 'C' shaped forest which has the E52 motorway cutting across it. If you zoom in on Google Earth the three photo 'buttons' appear in a triangle, close to the dual carriageway.

 

There's not much too see, just concrete circles.

 

This is South East of Jesingen, the co-ordinates on the map are ----

 

48.62839.

 

9.499278

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I don't know about Natter - you'd need to be a nutter to fly it! On another forum I might have substituted the same vowel in the manufacturers name...