Super 60 build, Big Bandit

[Big Bandit]

No more building today, instead spent the day rebuilding the motor. The problem I had is the one I brought off of Ebay, I found had a crack in the crankcase above the carb holding screws. John of Motorvation (absolute mine of information in all things vintage motors, and mega motor re-builder) supplied me with a new crankcase, head, backplate, gaskets and screws.

 

An old crank in a new crankcase is not always a successful combination, but worth a try, this one picked up on the starter. So I tried the Merco 29 in the test bed and it's a good motor, but not what I want. So my other 35 ran up a treat, throttled well but looked a bit of a dog, so a bit of mix and match did the trick.

 

Cleanup, re-build with the new head, and it runs just sweet.

Mounted in the fiberglass plate cut for the Super 60.

 

Looks very sweet. Only down side is I had to use M3 bolts instead of 6BA but we can't have every thing.

 

And the internal baffle in the exhaust works really well, the original exhaust is rubbish, but the internal baffle just takes the bark off. Off to Leeds tomorrow and hopefully pick some white nylon up from Sherwoods along with other goodies and back to building on Sunday, and make some real progress.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Andy Green]

I've just noticed you extra gussets on the fuselage.

 

Gonna copy that.

 

Andy

[Big Bandit]

Hi Andy,

 

My photo's could have been a lot better, only just found the camera I've been using for 3 years has a macro facility so it could have been a lot clearer. I just hate butt joints and like to scallop them to make the appearance under the covering to be a lot better.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Tesco Kid]

Hi Chris,

I have just started model building after a long time out of it and found your thread as I am building the same kit. I am taking your ideas/changes on board with the gussets, tailplane and fin etc. One question where did you get your pins from as I have bruised fingers from my smaller heads?

Look forward to seeing the next installment.

Bruce

[Big Bandit]

Hi Bruce,

 

Just been down the shed again and this is what I use, I have tee pins but prefer these, any smaller and I use pliers to insert and remove them.

 

 

25 mm office pins, just thinking outside the box, maybe our team assistant will order some I'll have a word next time i'm in the office . You do get more in the box than this but I decant a large number of them into one box for convenience.

 

 

 

Any road up on with the build, fell like a right slacker after a couple of days off, I tried to get some white nylon from the Leeds Model Shop and guess what they had every colour but white . Upside is this morning while getting some Christmas stuff from the loft and I found some old nylon I brought in 1975, and there's every colour but Orange. Some white may be enough to do the fus and tail feathers, so it's game on again.

 

A bit short on time I decided to cut the servo mounting tray that I usually use, the Ben Buckle thing is OK if you use standard servos, but I'm not. So I add a couple of 1/4 balsa runners and the balsa parts to support the 1/4 square servo rails. the rails I make from 1/4 spruce and add a further one to the front of the servo tray, but only glued to the fus. Fret out a 1/8 birch ply plate for the 3 servos and screw to the servo rails.

 

Ensure that when the output arms are trimmed they won't fowl each other.

 

You could always spin them round so the output arm for the centre one which is for the closed loop rudder is towards the tail rather than the nose. Then cut the unused arms from the other two servo's. I use HS81's from HiTec as I've found them to be very good servo's for the price (about £8) The RX will sit on the front of the tray and the RX battery under the tank for now but it can always be re-sited for the correct CG.

 

So far her's how it looks so far, just wish I'd have found the macro button on the camera before now.

 

The next job is to cover the tailplane, fin, elevator, and rudder then sew the hinges (the missus will be impressed) then sort the control linkages before covering the fus.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

Manage a bit more today, first covering the fin with nylon. It's years since I used it the stuff I'm using at the moment I found in the loft on Sunday and I remember buying it in 1975.

First give the whole fin a coat of sanding sealer when dry a light sanding with 240 grit on a large block. then a coat of full strength shrinking dope. Before the dope dries apply the nylon and pull evenly tight.

 

Trim up the excess leaving just a few millimeters to wrap around the edges. dope down the edges and leave to dry. Then do the other side the same, Normally the nylon is applied wet, but on this occasion I used it dry. When both sides are dry give the whole structure a coat of 50 / 50 dope and thinners. Use a good quality brush, there's nothing worse than picking brush hairs from a freshly doped structure when it's drying fast. Good scissors and a single edge razor are good for trimming off excess.

 

A second coat of shrinking dope is good enough for the fin. One problem is run through to the first side when doping the second like this one .

 

The other side is OK, just need to let it dry and shrink properly. Nylon shrinks more than any other covering so it's best to stick to two coats of 50 / 50.

 

 

The third coat of 50 /50 non shrinking dope is enough, always keeping a jar of thinners to clean the brush, and some kitchen towel to dry it off.

 

Do both sides and leave to dry. the shrinking dope that I have is old and has turned a bit golden with age, and it does give white nylon that aged look.

 

The upside is I've found some original water slide transfers to cover up the mistakes along with some SMAE transfers should do the trick.

 

While things were drying I decided to give the symmetrical tailplane ribs some cap strips from 1/64 ply. Ready for covering tomorrow.

 

 

 

If I can get the tailplane covered tomorrow along with the elevator and rudder, they can be hinged at the weekend ready to sort out the linkages.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

 

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Good stuff Chris....the smell of dope always takes me back.....the whole house knew when I was at the covering stage!!!

 

I wonder what that new water based dope is like? I can't see it smelling right......

[Big Bandit]

Not sure about the new stuff Steve, just covered the tailplane and elevator I would have done the rudder as well but it's the AGM at the Model flying club tonight. I Have enjoyed it though, although it was real job to get the edges to stick down properly, got it done now though and will have to do the photo's tomorrow. Off to sand me fingers before I go out .

Cheers,

Chris.

[Anthony Billings]

Hi Chris,

following your build with much interest, originaly I was going to get the Tranquiliser as a trainer build, but RCM&E plans have the plan sheet with no instructions and the mag article is no longer in stock. So this afternoon I purchased the 4 channel Super 60 kit to start a build in mid Jan when I return from work abroad, I will be doing the electric conversion and will unashamedly pinch some of your build ideas and mods if you don't mind. I have to say your photo's are nice and clear and your build explanations are really helpful, keep up the good work.

 

Tony

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Steve the nylon looks good. I'm on the same learning curve and wondering how I did it all those years ago.

I've done the bottom of both wings where I had trouble getting it to stick, it seems too loose so far.

The top of one wing is covered and this seems much better.

As you say, the edges are a nightmare to stick down, but I'm there eventually.

I'm working away this week but should be writing up my technique on my thread soon if the last panel works out OK.

Then I have to dope it .

 

[Ian Skeldon 1]

Hi Guys,

 

Great thread and takes me back a bit. I have built several of these models and would just like to pass on a tip that might save a lot of heart ache.

 

This model is well known for clapping hands. For those not familiar with this phrase, the wing tips try to meet in the middle and the wing collapses leaving the model to find the quickest way down and often with the inevitable results of re-build.

 

I have built several different mods into the wing build to avoid this. The easiest is to make better braces from thicker ply or two laminates of thin ply. My now preferred method is to make and fit a rigging point mid way along the spar. I then make rigging wires with clevises and these go into brass plates drilled to accept them.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

Ian

[Big Bandit]

Hi Tony,

 

Welcome to the forum, no problems help yourself. It's just my way of doing things and thats the idea of these blogs to pool ideas so different folks can do what suits them, Andy Green is doing one as well and Alan Dorrel is going to start one. Although I have to admit covering CL wings with nylon is a much easier job than doing these things, and it's a long time since I used the stuff, but I've started so I'll finish. Do enjoy the smelly dope though the stuff I've got must have been in the shed for about 5 years and has the colour and consistency of treacle obviously not gone off because it smells alright .

Cheers,

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

Hi Chris,

 

I gave mine a couple of coats of sanding sealer, then de-nibed with 240 grit. I used the nylon dry and gave the frame a coat of full strength dope just prior to applying the nylon, then doping through the nylon to the still wet dope on the frame.

 

The main problem is holding the nylon evenly taught while the dope dry's and if it's left to dry before applying the nylon dope brushed through to soften the dope on the frame doesn't seem to work.

 

Although a quick look through the KK handbook recomends allowing the dope to dry on the frame then applying the nylon and wicking thinners or very thined out dope to reactivate the dried dope on the frame.

 

I have a book by Ron Moulton somewhere explaining how to do it properly and he makes it look easy, in fact I used his method to do the combat wings.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

Hi Ian,

 

Thanks for the advice, a flying buddy of mine had a Super 60 with single channel some years ago which inevitably flew away, never one to give up he chased it in his mates car for a couple of miles and found it in the middle of a field.

 

Finally he just used it free flight and it did exactly what you describe.

 

In the original and the BB kit, I feel that the braces as they are designed concentrate the tension and compression loads at the same point on both spares, rather than spreading the load over varying points and as you suggest the braces are not thick enough.

 

I think a redesign of the braces using a more suitable thicker ply and probably spruce rather than balsa spars, but keep the elastic bands to hold the wings on to give a degree of flexibility.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[John Stephenson 2]

Hi Chris,

 

A first build guy here. I'm following your build blog with great interest and thanks for all the useful hints & tips.

 

I have stolen your "no butt joints" approach, modifying my fuselage and tailplane with gussets. However I have delayed the scarey bit - the scalloping - until I've practised on some scrap.

 

I'm eventually using nylon as a covering but not sure I "get it" yet. For instance, when covering solid sections with nylon (rudder/elevator/engine cowl, etc) do you dope all over the wood or just around the edges? Perhaps it will become clear to me as you do the fuselage.

 

Thanks,

 

John

[Big Bandit]

Hello John and welcome to the forum,

 

I'm glad you like the ideas for my build, one of the reasons for not liking butt joints is when "as a lad" we used double gluing. Glue the joint up then take it apart again allowing the glue time to almost dry, then glue it up again and fix it permanently. This works great with balsa cement and I still use it (ambroid thinned 50 / 50 with acetone) for the first gluing, then make the joint again with full strength. The first application of thinned glue soaks into the wood, the second softens it again and gives a much stronger joint. I've still got models that are years old and still hanging together.

 

With PVA it doesn't work the same, so to achieve the same strength we have to beef up the joints with gussets and scalloping the gussets removes unnecessary weight and improves the appearance of the finished model through the covering.

 

Glad your trying nylon, it adds so much strength to the overall airframe compared to iron on fabrics. For sheeted areas you need to give the balsa a good coat of full strength dope or sanding sealer leave to dry then a second coat. When that's dry, give the surfaces alight sanding with 120 or 240 grit sandpaper to remove all of the little hairs that are raised from the wood.

 

You should windup with smooth finish, then before applying the nylon a coat of full strength dope, lay the nylon out on the surface and brush, again full strength dope through the nylon to soften the dope underneath and bond the nylon to the surface. There's some that say wet the nylon first, TBH I've done mine dry and it worked for me. It's just the same for open structures, but I've had problems with those getting edges to stay stuck down solid, I think it's just me, out of practice and in too much of a hurry . It's important to keep the nylon tight while the dope dries to avoid wrinkles.

 

Two or three coats of 50 / 50 dope thinned with Celly thinners according to choice and Roberts your mothers brother, sorted . A nice drum tight covering.

As for scalloping if you don't have a mini drill or similar a piece of dowel with 120 sand paper stuck to it works fine (I've used a pencil before now), just remove the wood to produce a pleasing concave cut and blending the gusset into the basic airframe, it just raises the whole building experience to another level and is so satisfying. If your using a mini drill, take it easy, they cut a lot of material in one go, just a light touch until it looks right then finish off by hand.

Hope this helps, and keep the photo's coming it looks great. Better still start a blog.

Cheers,

Chris.

[John Stephenson 2]

Hi Chris,

 

Many thanks for taking the time to reply. I feel quite confident now to cover my model - the materials should arrive next week.

 

I'll not start a build blog cause I don't have the experience, but I did start a thread (Ben Buckle 48" Good News) which was mainly a "what do I do next" thing which has turned into a bit of a blog!!

 

Good to read your comments regarding Balsa cement. I use it all the time on my model but was embarrassed to mention it in any of my posts because no-one uses it today - I thought I might get beat up on the forums!!!

 

Quite a few jobs on my fuselage have been done twice and dismantling joints has fractured the Balsa so I'm happpy with the strength and convenience of the glue. Will continue to use it.

 

Course sandpaper around a stick is scalloping the gussetts just great!!!!

 

Thanks again, John

[Martyn K]

There is nothing wrong with Balsa Cement on these airframes. It only really becomes a problem on very light structures because it shrinks as it dries and can cause warps. Personally, I don't like it because I prefer slow drying glues - I use either Evo-Stik Resin W PVA or 30 minute epoxies and occasionally Cyano if I want to tack something down quickly. Cyano is also brilliant for cap strips on the top of ribs. But hey-ho - everyone has their preferences - it all depends what works for you. Ther is no right or wrong answer providing the glue is suitable for the task.

 

Martyn

[Big Bandit]

Hi Martyn, yes balsa cement can be a real problem with light airframes the joints have to be made really close to avoid warping. I only tend to use Ambroid these days but have to buy it at shows as only Flighthook and Sams stock it, and now you can only buy Acetone for thinning in small volumes. I've never been happy with the stuff that the model shops stock these days since Humbrol became scarce. After Ambroid, UHU Hart is my second choice.

 

I had exactly this problem with the KK Gypsy wing. When it was covered, I discovered a warp and had to weight it down while the dope dried which helped but not completely.

 

Must renovate that for the May fly, it uses 35 feet of 1/4" rubber motor pre wound in 8 doubles to shorten the motor to the proper length. A cordless drill with a hook in the chuck makes short work of winding though. It's one of the best rubber flyers that I have built and can always be relied on for a good performance.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

John, I may be able to get some more done tomorrow, and I'll cover the bottom of the fus and blog the steps as it uses fully sheeted areas, a good curved area and open structure.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

Edited By Big Bandit on 10/12/2011 17:41:42

[Big Bandit]

Hi All,

 

I did manage to get the tailplane covered last week but have only just had time to upload the pici's. I'm relatively happy with the result, but must admit the dope that is now the colour of treacle is becoming a pain to get a consistent overall colour that I want. I may get some none shrinking dope on later to try and balance the overall appearance out. and am going to add some colour trim rattle canned on anyway so It may look OK when it's finished.

 

The underside is just as bad.

 

I want to carry on with the same dope as I don't want the finish to look too "new and white" or I could have just used Solartex.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

 

[ian ludwell]

Hello to one and all,

Looking at the build pic so far i have to say what superb building skills have been employed.

I would love to have joined in this mass build but i have in my garage one old KK Super 60 that i flew during the few good days we had this year.

And bought 2 Super 60s built from plan a few years ago by a club mate of mine.

Have flown both models using a Thunder Tiger Pro 46 2 Stroke.

Both models fly well but have different characteristics.

I look forward to seeing how these models progress.

If i can be of help with information on the models i have and how they fly please ask.

 

Cheers..ian

 

[Paul Marsh]

I've got a Super 60 built about 3 years ago. Could I enter it? Has an OS 40 FS in it, or could change for a period engine, if necessary, as the engine is on bearers, and make a plug 'n' play swoppable plate.

[Big Bandit]

Hi Ian and welcome to the forum,

 

Thanks for the compliment, and I may be posting for advice before the models finished. Both of yours look good and I especially like the trim on the Blue and Yellow one, might just copy that on mine and would be interested to know how the KK logo is done, waterslide, vinyl or cut from film.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

Hi Paul,

 

I know the idea is to build one, but I don't suppose there would be any problem flying it at Greenacres for the annual flyin. Why not put something small together like a sharface or Popsie and do a blog. I've just brought a tomboy plan and wood pack at the annual swap meet for £15 that'll do for a small diesel. As soon as I get some time I'll do a blog for the Sharkface.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.