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Resurrecting A Classic Matador.....


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Today I got the Matador out of the loft as this forum as I suggested before has given me the impetous to sort out the flight problems. The wing and tail warps were easily corrected with a HOT air gun a process that took just a few minutes. I did acquire from E-bay some while ago a Ben Buckle Matador plan with enough balsa wood to build another plane. I opened up the plan today for the first time and was interested to note Ben Buckle's comments dated 1986 on the tailplane / wing incidence. It even suggested setting both wing and tailplane at zero incidence which I had already considered. However it did not indicate how this should be done. Well I discovered the tailplane is set on the engine thrust line but the wing platform certainly is not. The easy solution was therefore to modify the wing platform and bring it parallel to the tailplane which I had fixed in the past. It was necessary to build up the wing trailing edge by about 12mm by putting a balsa 'top hat' on the wing platform which does not enhance the plane's appearance. Anyway I have now completed the task and just need to add the radio gear back in and keep my fingers crossed for the next test flight.---I will keep you all informed.

The plane I flew successfully in the past was the Mercury Magna which was a smaller version of the Matador. The plane was part  built by a friend who gave up the hobby prior to completing the construction. It flew well at Epsom Downs as long as it was set to do left hand turns. It flew very slowly and gradually made its way each flight across the Downs on most flights. Compared with my other free flight planes such as the KK Pirate and the Southern Junior Models 'Southern Dragon' it was quite boring. Has anyone ever built a 'Southern  Dragon'---a brilliant plane, but I lost mine on its first flight?

MJE

 

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 23/02/2012 21:41:08

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:36:22

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Found some Solarfilm this morning so in quick time I have covered the wing platform fairing so the Matador is now 'ready for radio'. I hate removing radio gear from planes that are flyable so I may have to nip over to Avicraft to get a receiver and perhaps two servos.

If this plane flies I shall be truly pleased and absolutely amazed and may well refurbish the cockpit and add celluloid to the cockpit sides. I may also draw up the minor wing platform details on CAD for issue to who ever.

MJE

Matador

Matador

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 25/02/2012 14:39:38

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:43:04

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Radio gear now fitted (Borrowed from Junior 60), Motor tests out OK , I just need to sort out the internal servo linkages,charge up the flight batteries,check out the CG and then atempt a test flight either at Croydon Airport where there may be some long grass or at my flying club. Unfortunately my flying club (BPMFC) is 52 miles from home and there is no long grass which always provides crash protection for veteran or free flight models, but is not neccessy for modern flying bricks! Someone usually has a video camera at the club so if the Matador does fly it could be recorded on 'You-tube'. Fingers crossed for next week!

 

MJE

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:43:54

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As of today everything tests out OK , C/G is spot-on. I have taxied the plane down the garden but there seems to be no excess of power from the geared motor so it may need a hand launch as before. Hopefully it will fly and not drop a wing and crash as it did on the last flight attempt. I gather there are 11 MPH winds tomorrow at Bartons Point where my flying club is, so the wind strength may be slightly too strong.

Last week-end apparently the conditions were ideal.

New photos added including the near 50 year old Junior 60 radio doner plane to give some idea of the sort of state models can get into. I think a good clean-up and re-paint is necessary with fuel proof paint and not just Humbrol enamel which I thought was fuel proof when I was 15!

 

 

 

 

MJE

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 27/02/2012 14:08:51

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 27/02/2012 14:21:14

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:44:34

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Steve,

I have just dug out the motor and gear-box package---its a Graupner 'Speed 400 FG 1,5' It appears to be rated at 7.2 volts and the 4 cell NIMH battery packs I am using are of course rated at 4.8 volts so assuming the plane flys it may well be worth increasing the battery rating assuming this will not create problems with the associated receiver and speed controller---check necessary.

Originally my nephew flew the plane in the 70's with a PAW 1.49 but after it's initial pile-in I think he borrowed my OS 10 which I still have. As in the distant past we had only rudder and throttle control hand-launches were essential but that said the Junior 60 would take off from the ground but it needed a great distance to do so.

Regards,

Mike

.

 

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:45:54

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Blimey Mike I don't think you have enough power there to fly anything.....I'd take a guess at about 30watts max!!! You will need to use at least 8 cells on this type of motor...the old Sanyo AR800 was a popular choice.

What sort of cells are they? AA cells or something a bit meatier? AA cells will never supply enough current for anything like good performance. I would suggest a complete review of the power train before going to the field.....your Matty will never fly on that set up....I'm not surprised it can't roll along the grass...

Sorry to be negative...embarrassed

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:46:30

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Steve,

Further investigation of the motor / gearbox indicates the following:

  • Gear ratio 1.5:1
  • LengthxWxH: 60x45x34mm
  • Nominal voltage of the E-motor 7.2v
  • Operating voltage 8.4-10.8 V
  • Weight complete 100g

The suggestion is that it is suitable for small lightweight planes using 7-9 cells so obviously with the addition cells / power the plane could well take-off from the ground.

The all up weight of the Matador is a fraction over 2lbs which is 0.4 lbs lighter than the weight suggested by Ben Buckle on the Matador plan with the plane equiped with a PAW 1.49. However if further cells are added the weight difference may cancel?

 

Regards,

Mike

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 27/02/2012 14:56:30

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:47:08

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Steve,

 

My mistake---its an age thing I think?--- I am using 8 cell packs so the voltage is 9.6v. !!!!!

The battery packs are from a couple of small Cessna 182 ready to fly models I have bought about 6 years ago----my miserly approach has determined that I will not invest in Lipo's despite being a qualified electrical engineer now retired!!

Yours Brain Dead,

Mike

 

 

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:48:17

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Ah 9.6volts is better......but what sort of cells are they? A speed 400 will take around 12-15A....Can your battery supply this sort of current?

Also I would suggest that 6 year old cells may be very far from their best & will probably struggle to supply either enough current or enough capacity or even both......dont know

Might an inexpensive brushless set up be worth the money? Looks a lovely model...worth a few quid surely?

Check out Lee Damms Matty thread.....he is using a pretty low cost set up.....less that £20 all in I would guess....

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:48:52

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Steve leave him alone, it's a vintage electric setup in a vintage model

No seriously, a cheap brushless setup with a lipo would give far more power for much less weight. Of course this could mean having to add lead for the C/G - who knows?

Mike if you stick to the speed 400, I seem to remember we had a rule of thumb that said if you can keep the current below 10Amps then the motor is likely to last longer. Of course your actual current will depend on what prop you have on and how good your cells are still.

Cheers
Chris

 

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:49:32

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Chris,

 

They are not all six years old,some of the batteries are relatively new and have only been used once or twice. Certainly the plane makes the right noise on full throttle---don't worry about the batteries!

More photos added just to confirm the cell quantities etc. Everything had to be moved as close to the front of the plane to avoid the need to add ballast to get the C/G right. Excuse the mess it will sorted!

I have noted your Hawker Hunter picure,my older brother 81 this year worked on the Hunter prototypes at Hawkers in Kingston. It was his stories of the Hunter and Swift that got me interested in aircraft in the 1950's

Regards,

Mike

 

s

 

 

 

 

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:51:40

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I have just spotted Danny's Sea Fury; well brother Ron installed / riveted fuselage panels on the whole production of the Sea Fury at Hawkers during his apprenticeship.

 

Anyone still interested in the Matador, if not I will just waft my way from this forum and do something useful?

MJE

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:55:25

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Sorry Mike I am a disruptive influence..... I blame Steve.

The Matador is looking great and look forward to hearing how it goes. My Mam'selle hasn't flown yet, just waiting for you and everybody else to iron out the wrinkles of these "radio nudged" free flighters.

Cheers

Danny

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:56:10

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Sorry Mike....we tend to get distracted...I blame Mr Fenton....he's still recovering from building an IC powered Mamselle recently....the oil...the noise......it all kind of upset him poor fella...smile o

So yes, back to the Matty....you have a gear drive Speed 400 with 8 cells that are quite new-ish & it seems to make the right noise......does it have enough thrust to fly do you think? What sort of prop do you have fitted? Can you beg, borrow or steal a wattmeter to see what sort of voltage & current is available?

General modelling law tells us that 100watts/lb is a good starting point but for vintage models you can get away with much less....60watts or so per lb will be easily enough to fly it...so based on that you should look for around 120watts which equates to about 15A if we assume your batteries hold around 8volts under load.....

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 15:57:03

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Steve,

OK so back on track----I have not got a suitable wattmeter,the last time I enquired about a suitable instrument at my local model shop Avicraft they were unable to assist me and provide a suitable meter. However I can always measure the PD of the batteries on full load with a voltmeter and if as you suggest they hold 8 volts they should be OK. I could introduce a DC ammeter in series with the motor on full load and then simply multiply the potential difference x the current measured---simple Ohm's law. Thanks for the information.

The prop is a 'Graupner' glass fibre reinforced 'Slim Prop' 8x4 inch

As for Matty's 'Mamsell' I did obtain a plan of this plane in 1961 from the Aeromodeller magazine together with many other plans free of charge. I still have the plan but have never built the plane. I have always intended building another Southern Dragon (Ben Buckle do the plan) in preference, It has some very good design features such as a crutch built fuselage which avoids any distortion.

Regardless of the battery issue the Matador should fly even if there is insufficient power to keep it aloft for any length of time.

 

MJE

 

 

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 14/03/2012 16:10:56

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