Matador build by Big Bandit

[Big Bandit]

Hi Lee,

TBH I'm not too good at any type of covering, but I've found with Litespan it pays to set the iron properly as the instructions say on the little sheet that comes with the Litespan. The little Coverite thermometer jobby works fine, and only costs a fiver, that one I use came from Sherwoods in Leeds I think and it's very handy.

I tend to leave a decent overhang (10 to 15 mm) and I tack each end of the component (ie tips of the tailplane in this case) at the recommended low setting and after the first end's tacked pull tight whilst tacking the other end. Then work along the leading edge tacking it down whilst keeping it fairly straight, followed by the trailing edge pulling tight as you go.

When this stage is done it should be fairly tight already, then turn the wick up on the iron to the higher recommended setting and "glide" over the covering which should remove almost any other wrinkles that may be left.

I then use the iron to "pull" the covering around any curves and it's this bit that takes practice and you may find a bit more balsalock is needed. I tend to wipe off any excess with a kitchen towel before it dries. Then any creases will be able to be ironed out with the iron on the higher setting.

Finally remove any remaining troublesome small wrinkles with the heat gun on the low setting and used selectively.

When Balsalock dries any residue can be removed with acetone on a piece of kitchen towel.

When I cover the wings I'll try to do a video of the process if I can get this video editing malarkey sorted out.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

Hi Mike,

For me one of the advantages of Litespan is the weight and it's much stronger than lightweight tissue and about the same as Heavyweight without the weight gain, and it's fuel proof to a degree. I have an old Quiver (mini Quaker Flash) that's covered in Litespan and it's about the same size as the Matty, but it's so light that a small blue wonder motor flies it a treat. I'll try to weigh it later as a bit of a guide on what to expect the Matty to come out at.

In saying that there are most likely more suitable covering materials on the market that I've not tried, a visit to the Solarfilm web site give's lots of useful info.

I feel that any iron on film doesn't impart the same torsional strength as heavyweight tissue or Nylon, but both come with a weight penalty particularly nylon considering the amount of dope needed to fill the weave of the material. In saying that I think Solartex is heavy as is Solarfilm though not to the same extent. On such a lightweight airframe as the Matty there has to be a more suitable covering material, and I had plenty of cream Litespan left over from other projects, so I used that.

Steve's spot on with Danny and Tim's models, they look great and how Danny covered the Mamselle's curves without the dreaded wrinkles I'll never know .

Cheers,

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

Posted by Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 23/04/2012 17:09:56:

Their Royal Highnesses Timothy Hooper

I think using Oracover on a Super 60 might qualify for a thrashing with a rolled up copy of the Keil Kraft Handbook by an assemblage of vintage aeromodellers Mike.....a Super 60 must only be covered with doped Nylon or Solartex at a pinch.....its the law....

Steve, don't you mean H.R.H Sebastian Weetabix . A genuine 60's Kiel Kraft Handbook is winging it's way to me (cover price 2/6' which will be religiously rolled in the time honoured fashion .

[Big Bandit]

Back again,

First off the original Quiver 1982, I think it was a DC Spitfire for power, and the photo was scanned. RCM&E radio (not that light compared to todays offerings) with Futaba mini (18 gram servo's), 250 m/Ah Nicad RX battery, AUW from memory about 1 3/4 pounds, with Litespan covering.

Roll on 30 years and this is now over 4 years old and has seen some action the Electric Quiver, 1500 Kv blue wonder motor on a 1500 2S lipo, 2 off Eflight 9 gram servo's, 15 Amp ESC. Litespan covering and Revell Acrylic trim.

Looks much nicer in the sunlight

1500 KV blue wonder motor, and a 6 or 7 x 4 Punci's wooden IC prop

AUW 15.9 Oz in old money, not including the lipo

 

 

 

The point is given that the similarity of construction and size of the model including wood sizes, and the covering with 9 gram servo's the instead of the original 18 gram, I can't see why the Matty should weigh twice as much. And it's such a pleasant and relaxing model to fly.

Cheers,

Chris.

Edited By Big Bandit on 23/04/2012 21:22:37

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Impressive Chris!

The Litespan looks OK in the photographs and I particularly like the Quiver.

I could argue that the Litespan represents new technology and that only Modelspan should be used but I am sure I would lose that argument. I have one plane with tissue covered wings, the 'Second Pronto' but it was built by someone else about 15 years ago and sold to me at auction to raise the builder's club funds.

Weather looks awful for Wednesday and Thursday so my trip to Grafham Water could be undermined and I gather the weekend weather is poor so no flying!

MJE

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Posted by Mike Etheridge 1 on 23/04/2012 18:12:30:

What's wrong with Oracover though,the Germans know what they are doing,they even use it on full size craft and it looks ever so posh. it was Avicraft that talked me into using it?

Mje

Hi Mike...nothing at all wrong with Oracover.....in fact I would even stick my neck out & say it was the best covering film out there although its not cheap!!! I was just making a tongue in cheek reference that older models should look the part rather than be covered in shiny plastic film. As you say though Litespan "...Very Light, thin synthetic fibre tissue. Has been factory “doped” with a totally fuelproof resin......." could hardly be described as "Vintage" could it....

The metaphoriacal thrashing with a rolled up copy of the KeilKraft Handbook is, I'm sure you will agree, a suitable punishment for those who transgress the ways of vintage-ness!!! I think having a model whose nylon covering rotted away should gain you immediate entry to this distinguished body of aeromodellers.....

[Big Bandit]

Hi Mike,

Steve's right, Oracover looks spot on, covering my Taylorcraft 450, but maybe a tad out of character on the Super 60. Litespan is more modern but doesn't look out of place on the Matty. To me it's about trying different coverings to see what suits you and the model. At some time I'm going to have to bite the bullet and try some of the more recent Solarfilm offerings.

Upside is I've just had a vintage Merco 35 Black Streak delivered for the Super 60 and I've got a refurbed crankcase and backplate to bolt the innards into. Guess what I'm upto this weekend .

Cheers,

Chris.

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Chris,

So I must have put the wrong engine an Enya Super Sport 40 in my hybrid Super 60 not to mention using the wrong covering material? I could have installed a PAW 29, or a Merco 29 or a Merco 35. I have new exhausts for both the 29 and 35. Also in store is a Merco 61 with Chris Olsen's address marked in the box. However the 61 appears to be totally clapped out.

So this weekend---looks like your gardening Chris?

Mike

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 24/04/2012 23:48:02

[Big Bandit]

Posted by Mike Etheridge 1 on 24/04/2012 23:47:14:

Chris,

So I must have put the wrong engine an Enya Super Sport 40 in my hybrid Super 60 not to mention using the wrong covering material?

As I said it's what suits you and the model.

So this weekend---looks like your gardening Chris?

yer right , tomorrows picking up the new car that I brought for the missus last Thursday and dropping her old one at the garage for fixing prior to flogging it. then it's more shedly pastimes like building aeroplane's and re-building motors. I've also got a parcel to collect from the post office, think it's the Enya 35 I brought on Ebay last week, then it'll be a lot of aromatheraphy in the garage.

Cheers,

Chris.

Mike

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 24/04/2012 23:48:02

[Big Bandit]

Hi All,

A bit more done, first off the fin sanded covered and glued into the tail plane, after cutting out the slot between the two centre ribs. Glue it up using a square to ensure that the fin is at right angles. Notice the dreaded wrinkles that have crept in iether side of the fin, a quick going over with the iron will see those gone.

Next up is to glue the assembly to the fus. I pin the TE to the rear of the fus.

Then using the good old IKEA paper tape pinned somewhere central at the other end of the fus.

swing the tailplane whilst measuring to the tailplane tip.

Do the same the other end. I then used a pin iether side of the fin LE pushed into the fus, and that's the Tailplane square and ready to be glued in situ.

For level, I eyeballed this one as there isn't really enough depth in the fus at the tailend to use a square effectively. Rudder and elevator fitted, it looks like a Matty.

The cowl covered and fitted with the servo tray back in it's ready to set up the linkages and final fuel proofing of the engine bay,

Theres the tailskid to do and wheels to get on, after glueing the tailplane on it's obvious that a push rod may not be appropriate so I'll use a closed loop again for the rudder. It may also be appropriate to use Teflon tube running over the tailplane to guide the closed loop cables in order to keep the control horns at a reasonably low level.

More to come,

Cheers,

Chris.

[Lee Damms]

Nice one Chris, I'm nearly at the same stage. What are you doing about the glazing? screw fitting or glueing, I'm praying

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Chris,

Great progress as usual and very precise modelling.

As far as glazing the model as Lee mentions, I always did reasonably well with Evo-Stick contact adhesive which no longer seems available due to it's use by glue sniffers I think? Recently I used '5 minute epoxy' glue on my Super 60 which was fine on the side windows but I managed a smear or two on the front canopy which required setting in the usual parabolic or similar curve. I have just done the same with the Matador and as I mentioned before it's better but not perfect. I have used some Sellotape masked red paint this time on the framing.

Glad I had my slope soaring clothing with me at Grafham water for the Schneider Electric fly fishing contest. it was very windy I got 7 fish but no prizes!

Grim weather this weekend again.

Mike

 

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 27/04/2012 23:43:08

[Big Bandit]

Hi Lee,

TBH I'm not sure yet as it's one of my not so favourite bits. One Idea I've had and someone may have already tried it, is making a simple mould to fit into the cut outs of the cabin windows. then using the old Pop bottle technique with a heat gun to form push in glazing similar to what E Flight use on some of their ARTF models. I must admit that the idea is a bit vague to me at the moment, but I'll have a play to see what I can come up with. If it's not too difficult I may use it on all of my cabin models

To me theres something about just sticking acetate to the out side that lets a model down a bit.

I've got to pick the missus old car up tomorrow from the garage and it's a scrapper (ECU's gone US) so I won't be about until after lunch time, but when I get back I'll have a play.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

Hi Mike,

Sorry I was posting to Lee when yours came through, and it's a pity that your fishing day was spoiled. I did try fishing back in the 70's but didn't really take to it and it was just after I decided to quit the band and sell my drums so was maybe not the time to have a go at it.

Anyway, the adhesive of choice for me is RC modellers glue for canopies and such (the one on the right) the other I've not tried yet, but it's specifically designed for the job. One word of caution though, if as I used to do and leave the adhesives in an un-heated shed in winter the frost kills most forms of PVA ask me how I know.

As I've said to Lee glueing the acetate to the outside of the cabin glazed area seems a bit of a let down to me and I never feel happy with the result, I'm also aware that others feel the same. So I'm going to have a go at something different. A mate of mine forms an internal frame and glazes that before installing it in the window, but that seems a bit over the top unless your building a true scale job, I want to represent something similar a more simpler way. It's worth a go anyway if it doesn't work we've always got the old method to fall back on.

I forgot to mention in the reply to Lee that my mate has some of his vintage jobs hanging up now in the LMS, so tomorrow I'll get some pici's of how he does his glazing. It's worth a look and I'm sure he won't mind.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

Just an after thought Mike,

UHU POR works much the same as EVO STICK, most of us use it on foam models, but it works much better if both surfaces are smeared and left to dry, then put together. It's odourless so is of no use to glue sniffers .

UHU HART on the other hand smells just like the old balsa cement I remember, as doe's Ambroid and it can be thinned with Acetone for double glueing to strengthen joints in the time honoured fashion.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Chris,

As I wanted to keep the weight down on the Matador originally I used a sheet of clear plastic from a specification front cover to form the front canopy cover. I spoke to the guys in Avicraft about the glueing problem and they suggested 'RC Modellers glue' so that's what I used. However the result as can be seen in my early photos was not good. I found when replacing the clear plastic the other day that the glue had not hardened after about 3 years. The replacement celluloid I have used is a heavy grade. I found I could bend/crease the extreme edges where they needed to adhere to the outer cockpit frame. I did the glueing in two hits with the 5 minute Epoxy glue which I carefully spread on the Solarfilmed frame. Unfortunately the celluloid slipped a couple of times which resulted in glue smears on the glazing but fortunately the glue dries clear. I did think afterwards that if I attemted the job again I could improve the finish further but realistically the plane is not first class due to an earlier fuselage repair and patch-up of Solarfilm plus the tailplane is 'wonky'!

The fishing was not that bad, only one fall of rain to endure in the boat but due to the wind we were all restricted to half way across the reservoir. Somehow I have got to cope with the consumtion of 14lb 10oz of trout---I must give some away!

Mike

Edited By Mike Etheridge 1 on 28/04/2012 10:34:11

[Big Bandit]

Hi Mike,

I can't remember having any problem with the RC modellers glue but will have to try the Canopy glue, that was recomended by Steve of Steve's models in Ashby. i love going in there it's like the old model shops of years ago and not an RTF anywhere to be seen. Another Forum member uses the same place for bits.

As I said in an earlier post UHU POR is very good as a contact adhesive, might be worth having a look at the stuff when you need to fix another canopy or cabin glazing.

Off to the LMSnow for some pic's of my mates glazing efforts and a small tin of humbrol to match the Liespan.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Chris,

Must get some UHU POR !

I have attached my latest attempt with glue smears---it will have to do, but I will have a bash with the side windows next week.

Mike

[Lee Damms]

Hi Chris,  the push in glazing sounds interesting, would this this be glazing stuck onto a sub frame then inserted in the fuselage?.   Mike It looks like you had the same problem that I sometimes get with canopy glue, it does stick but sometimes parts of it never seem to dry fully and you're left with a milky residue, possibly too much glue.

Regards

Lee

Edited By Lee Damms on 28/04/2012 18:23:59

[Big Bandit]

Hi All,

A bit more done, but while at the LMS I took some pici's of a mates methods of fixing glazing, just for idea's and inspiration really. First his Matty. These are an inset frame which is glazed before fixing.

His Junior 60 with the glazing held with small screws.

His Baby Super 60 or may be a Super 30, after glazing trimmed and painted.

Don't know what this is but its covered in Litespan and the windows are just trimmed with Solar trim.

Anyway back to my effort, I've decided to sort the Rudder and Elevator linkages out, and talk about tight, if the cabin had been glazed it would be almost impossible for me to fiddle with the servo end of the system. Closed loop for the Rudder and Pushrod for the Elevator.

It looks tidy from the back end.

And the Closed loop exit worked out better than I thought it would, but the guide tubes I had left were too short so I might need to glue some small acetate strips under the cables to stop them rubbing through the covering over the main spar.

Then the missus brought some sandwiches and coffee down to the shed for me, and when she shut the shed door the selotape holder fell off the shelf and GRrrrrrrrrr To say I'm miffed would be an understatement, but it couldn't be helped and it can be repaired.

As for the trip to the LMS and trying to get some paint to match the covering for around the cabin area, I think I have more chance of knitting fog, so I got some Matt white and will try to take down some beige I have by a couple of shades, anyway progress is progress, and I've sorted the tailskid ready for covering tomorrow.

I'm supposed to be going out tonight to a gig by some old Muso's I know but TBH I can't be bothered, Been there , Done that, binned the T shirt, and moved on. Later I'll get down the shed and cover the tail skid ready for fitting tomorrow and fuel proof the engine bay.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Big Bandit]

Hi Lee,

Yes, he does use a sub frame, but it's ok for square windows just how to do it with complex curves I'm not sure, may be some of the more experienced modellers will jump in with idea's.

As for my idea of the moulds I'm still up for it, but as today started out bad and got worse I thought I'd do some thing not too difficult, and even managed to make a mess of that. Glazing does seem to be one of those areas where some fall down a bit including me. When you say you had problems with canopy glue is that the RC Modellers Glue, I've not tried the canopy glue that I get from Steves yet and it looks like a new product so a test piece may be the order of the day.

One thing I have thought about is that balsa cement is made from acetate disolved in acetone basically, and UHU Hart is the nearest I've found to proper balsa cement. Ambroid from the States is very good but not entirely clear and hard to find (Only Sams and Flighthok seem to stock it). So it might be going back to the old balsa cement (proper stuff) might be the answer to sticking acetate sheet to balsa.

I Use Acetone to thin Balsa cement ( and I only use Ambroid or Hart) for double glueing and Acetone is available in small quantity's from the local chemist. No point in spending a wedge on exotic glues when the old Balsa cement does the job better.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Lee Damms]

Hi Chris mines the one you've not tried, Formula 560 ( The worlds best canopy glue ) allegedly.

[Big Bandit]

Hi Lee,

That's the one I got from Steve, I'll give it a try. It's some times worth playing around with these things juts to see what works the best. As the weathers so miserable at the moment maybe have a play today in the shed. I'm surprised that you and Mike have found these things don't dry properly as I've not come across that before.

Cheers,

Chris.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Big thumbs up for the Formula 560 from me....takes a while to dry (24hrs) but boy does it stick......

[Big Bandit]

Hi All,

The weathers been absolute rubbish today and sitting in the shed waiting for the roof to go over next doors ain't been fun. Anyroadup a bit more done although not what I'd planned but here goes. First I fuel proofed the inside of the engine bay so it had time to dry while I faffed about with other bits. A bit of a cleanup of the covering will do the job fine.

Not forgetting the inside of the cowl, diesel fuel and it's residue gets every where, and as a lad we had diesel powered models literally fall apart due to fuel ingress.

Next up is under cart to sort out. Clean the wire UC with wire wool, emery or sandpaper leaves a residue that stops the solder sticking well. I then strip off some multi strand wire and wrap one strand around the UC leg.

Flux it with an acid based flux and use leaded solder for a better joint. The plumbers merchants are the best place to go for these.

I use a mini gas torch for a heat source but a good soldering iron is just as good, get the joint hot enough for the solder to melt when applied to the joint, I follow on by sticking a suitable sized washer and heat that up as well with a bit more solder. the solder mat I use is an offcut of master board, all my soldering is done on that. An old fire brick or similar does the job just as good.

Allow to cool properly and do the other side the same, jobs a goodun.

I had already done the tailskid, covered and glued on with an 18 gauge wire skid formed to shape and cyano'd on then filled along the edge with micro balloons and cyano to give a durable skid for concrete and tarmac runways. I should be so lucky .

Last job is to finish the cabin frame, as the LMS doesn't do a suitable colour match for the cream litespan, I've mixed my own, Humbroll matt beige and matt white worked, and ain't far out, two coats with a light sanding between looks OK, I've probably missed a bit but I'll do an inspection before starting the glazing.

With the problems people seem to be having with glueing acetate I've decided to try different adhesives. so I've made four simple frames one side painted and the other left as clean balsa. The idea is to stick acetate to both sides with the same adhesive for each frame, then we can see if the frame being painted or sealed has an effect on the adhesive used for the glazing. We can also see what visual effect the adhesive has on the finished job.

The painted side

And unpainted.

And well see what we get, I'll use four different adhesives and can do more if appropriate. I still fancy trying moulded internal glazing but that will have to wait until next weekend, and hopefully the weather will be better for faffing about in the garage.

Cheers,

Chris.

Edited By Big Bandit on 29/04/2012 19:58:21