An idiot's guide to building a Barnstormer

[Nigel Day]

So, after lurking around here for a few months following the build blogs of the experienced and inspiring, I’m about to build my second model, a Barnstormer 63”.

At the speed I build, Phil, Danny and others will have ironed out all the really tricky bits by the time I get to them. That’s the plan anyway.

I have an over-developed sense of humour and I’m not easily offended. If you read something in this build blog that you think is wrong, or feel I need help with, by all means chip in. Even if it’s only to ask “Why did you do that Nigel?” The more interactive this is, the better.

I suspect that my efforts will be entertaining and they might even be instructive – albeit in a “I’ll know not to do it that way again” kind of way.

I learnt a lot whilst building my first, a Ben Buckle Junior 60. It’s still to fly as I haven’t run the engine in yet nor had much practice on the sim. Hopefully when I get a nice day and can make it to my local flying site I’ll find an understanding ‘pro’ who’ll get it up in the air for me and/or land it.

There's no shed to build in so my ‘workshop’ is split into two ‘benches’. The first is in my office and covers one of two desks I have there. This is where the sawing and cutting out takes place, especially when the weather’s not so nice. The other is in our ‘family room’ where I have 2/3 of a dining table. My wife does her craft bits on the other 1/3. You can see the photos here.

The ribs, cabanes, wheels and plans all came from DB Sport. The rest from various sources and cut up by me. I’ve tried to make sure that they’re all the right size and true but only time will tell……

I just need to finish sanding a few of them to size and we’ll be off.

In the meantime, a few questions.

1) What electric motor (make, size etc), ESC, battery and prop etc would anyone recommend? I don’t expect to be trying advanced aerobatics in it but neither do I plan to only putter about with it. This model will probably be my main trainer for a little while. It would be nice to get the lot from one place and whilst I’m not totally penniless, I don’t need the mut’s nuts either.

2) I’m adding ailerons so what kind of dihedral (if any) will I need?

3) Because I’m going electric I’ll need to adjust the nose a bit – by reducing the size or building up a mount of some kind between the motor and F2. What do folks recommend?

That’ll do for now. I’m sure I’ll have plenty of questions later.

[kevin b]

Hi Nigel and welcome to the deep end of the swamp. Now you've done it, there is no going back. This is turning into a good laugh and I am looking forward. to Greenacres.

The only issue I will take up with you is the thread title. It should be "Another......" I'm sure the mods will put it right.

Good luck with the build . I will follow with interest. I'm waiting for the wind to die down to below gale force so that I can get someone to test mine.

kevinb. "Shedstormer"

[Danny Fenton]

Looking forward to this Nigel
Cheers
Danny

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Yep cant be that bad if you can build a Super 60

lets keep the build area tidy though, they are sticklers for a tidy workplace

looking forward to it NIgel

[cymaz]

BRING IT ON............

Like the picture showing a pub guide and a BBQ apron......the man's a genius. 

Edited By cymaz on 19/03/2014 09:46:35

[Josip Vrandecic -Mes]

Hi Nigel ,at first, you are a person with positive thinking, and secondly, you are from Cornwall... enough to wish you all the best

Note : My dear friend Al, now lives in  Croatia,He is also from Cornwall....that reason for good mood...

Joe

Edited By Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 19/03/2014 10:06:42

[Nigel Day]

Thanks Kevin, Danny, John, Cymaz and Joe.

It looks as though there good be plenty of banter here. Excellent!

It was only a Junior 60 John, not a Super 60. The covering's iffy at the wingtips (I'm going to try a heat gun to shrink it } and the nose but certainly looks OK otherwise. How it'll fly is anyone's guess.

The apron is actually to protect me from glue and other cr*p Cymaz. I guess that removes half the street cred eh? That said, it does get used when the weather is good enough.

Hi Joe. Despite what Yorkies say, Cornwall seems to be God's own county. It's a bit remote but a beautiful place to live. I had a web coder working for me from Bosnia. Lovely guy to work with and great grasp of english 'slang'.

I'm hoping to get started properly tomorrow (Thursday). It's my wife's day volunteering at a local National Trust property so I get a clear run.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

there you go Nigel your not an idiot after all, you spotted my deliberate mistake

only did it to boost your confidence I wasn't implying you'd had it that long it had matured

[Danny Fenton]

For it to be a "proper" build blog you need to get to at least the bottom of page two without actually opening the glue

As for motor, prop, esc etc etc, I should steal domebody elses set up, should guarantee success Just make sure they have flown it succesfully

Better savor those pics of the office and dining room, a permanent layer of balsa dust will soon descend......

Cheers

Danny

[Nigel Day]

You joke Danny but a previous boss of mine who was keen on anagrams realised that my name makes 'delaying'. He thought it quite appropriate - and he wasn't alone.

Wait until I get going John. Then you'll realise that I was right all along. I started the Junior 60 build over 4 years ago and then parked it after completing the wing halves. It's 'only' taken me 6 months to complete it from when I picked it up again last September.....

[kc]

I suggest making the nose so the Lipo can go right behind the motor so keeping the weight well forward to avoid using lead to get CG right. Equally making the bulkheads with a cutout big enough to push the lipo back if required.
In other words avoid using stand off type mounts.

Maybe aim for 4.5 pound to 5 pounds all up weight and a 4S3000 Lipo and 400 to 500 watt motor as a minimum. What do the experts think?

[Nigel Day]

Thanks kc.

PatMc recommended Turnigy 3548 900kv, 60A esc, 12x6 prop on 4s 4000 lipo

and was seconded by Pete B so in the absence of anything else, that's what I'll go with.

[Nigel Day]

Right, so I'm finally off and running.

First proper progress report (and before the end of the second page!) and I've already learnt lessons, made mistakes and avoided others.

I've tried building two sides of a fuselage on top of each other and whilst it worked OK, I didn't put anything between them and had a little fun splitting them afterwards. I don't fancy doing one, covering it with cling film etc and then doing the other (too slow) so I've adopted another approach.

When i got my plans, the first thing I did was to get 3 photocopies. The original went into storage (just in aces), one went on the drawing board and another went upstairs to the cutting/sawing/sanding bench. The third was cut up into pieces. I took the fuse section and placed it on the drawing board, next to the fuse section on the main plan.

If I'd been really clever (and I'll do this for the wing), I'd have edited the scan of the plan to produce a reversed version. That way I could build a left and right-hand side together. As it is, I need to leave the tail infill area off one of them until I've taken it off the board.

Fortunately everything else on the fuselage (as built on the plan) is the same for both sides.

I'd read about the measurements of bits on the templates differing from the plan and had checked the parts out, I thought. When I came to check where the F4 former fitted, I realised that the forward body sides were about 1/16th too long.

Luckily I'd taken the approach of cutting all the pieces and fitting them up dry. I took the sides off, shortened them and put them back.

I'll glue the gusset and the brace to the longerons with the former in place to get the correct spacing and then remove it until I join the fuse sides.

Where the bottom longeron joins the front sides, it needs to bend. Rather than rely on the glue keeping it flush and a decent joint, I thought I'd try bending it using a kitchen cleaning spray, as has been suggested elsewhere. It's drying in place as I write this so I'll let you know whether it worked or not in the next exciting episode......

[kc]

I noticed that Pat used a 900kv as he was using 4S while someone else used a 1100kv because he used only 3S. So they used a motor with a suitable Kv for the battery they used. That's the important part that went unmentioned in your other thread.
Actually they both used bigger ( heavier) Lipo's than I expected so maybe they would go further back. It all depends on how heavy (at the tail end )your model turns out, so it's best to make provision for enough adjustment of the Lipo position.
The reason for building one side over the other is to ensure they are exactly the same width and the uprights are in exactly the same place. Its easy to feel a tiny difference in width etc but harder to spot by eye whether they are exactly on the lines of the plan. Having them exactly the same makes it easier to avoid banana shaped fuselages!

[kc]

I think the triangular gusset should only be glued in when the former is glued in. Reason is it needs a strong glue joint otherwise it wont do much. If the sides are even slightly different the former position may have to be adjusted to get everything square. You dont want to be limited too much by having glued a gusset in too early.

[Nigel Day]

Thanks kc. I'll make sure that I have flexibility for battery placement in the nose when I come to add the various trays/shelves that I might need.

It'll be interesting to see how close the fuse sides will be then!

Yes, I was having second thoughts about gluing the gusset and cross-piece anyway. I'll leave it until I join the fuse halves with the formers.

Edited By Nigel Day on 21/03/2014 19:36:47

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Nice start Nigel. I'll enjoy watching this one come together - I'm confident it will be a shiningly good example of the type!

BEB

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

good stuff Nigel

you're a natural

[Danny Fenton]

Glue before the bottom of page! 1 well done, a good start too. I think a layer of clear plastic sheet between fus sides, if you build one above the other is a must there Nigel but you got away with it

Looking forward to the next installment

Cheers

Danny

[Nigel Day]

Thanks BEB, John, Danny.

Yes, but what type BEB?

A natural what John?

We'll see if I got away with it when I put the sides together Danny.

[Nigel Day]

Episode 2, the one that got away (with it).

First off, priorities right, a virtual chocolate digestive to all those following and a cup of coffee for me.

Looks as though doing both side together (as opposed to on top of each other one by one) worked - well apart from a bit of weirdness on the plan copy that is....

Having given myself a tiny pat on the back for remembering to fit the tail infill to only one of the pieces, I took the fuse halves off the board only to find that the one been built on the portion of plan copy, was slightly skewed. It's a simple scan/photocopy so how did that happen?

The tail section was slanted up by about 4mm at the tail. Sure enough, the full size plan copy was fine and level along the top longeron. The second half was slightly bowed upwards. This was confirmed by placing the first half on the plan copy section and vice versa. I can only think that, although it looked flat, the cut out section copy was slightly skewed on the board and that I hadn't flattened it fully. (Another) lesson for next time - make sure that straight lines are actually straight on the plan & board.

The good news is that the kitchen spray cleaner came to my rescue again. By spraying the rear 2/3 of the skewed fuse half and pinning it over the full plan all was fine 24 hours later. Now both halves match nicely - OK, after a bit of heavy duty sanding top and bottom (only kidding Danny!).

Then I could add the sheet infill for the second tail section - any only just remembering to orient it correctly.

Then I set to the formers.

At first I planned to follow Phil (W)'s idea to form the u/c box around F3 - but after playing around with the bits and the fuse halves I decided to put the formers on the fuse and add the ply u/c doublers and ply bottom plate separately. I could see that if I didn't get the positioning right that I'd have gaps between the box and bits of the fuse.

I did remember to add the cabane blocks to the formers and drill & fit the cabanes to the top.

Next step is to fit the two formers to one of the fuse halves, let it dry properly and then join the two fuse halves. I've got a (SLEC) building jig so the joining squarely will be fairly easy. I've only got one small eng'rs square currently but with the space available I'll be able to use a couple of adjustable squares I have and perhaps the odd set-square too.

The engine, ESC and battery are arriving tomorrow (according to Hobbyking) so I'll then be able to get a good feel for how all the electric gubbins fits together and lays out. Then I can think about the 'flooring', trays and so on for all of them. I'll also get an idea of where the engine will fit and how best to handle the smaller size.

Tune in again for the next exciting installment of one man's fight to avoid turning a set of non-aerodynamic bits of wood into one big non-aerodynamic lump.

Nigel

[Mike Etheridge 1]

Nigel,

Your Junior 60 should fly itself without the need for radio. Mine did in 1963 and still does with the radio turned off.

However with the radio turned on and assuming the C/G is correct it should be easy to control with the simple basic rules 'do not to fly it too far away and keep it in front of you'. I have not learnt much else in 52 years of on/off radio control flying!

Best of luck with the Barnstormer and your marriage.

MJE

[Nigel Day]

Thanks Mike.

The marriage I'm confident with, the Barnstormer - well let's see!

[Nigel Day]

The more I do of this model, having followed Phil’s and Danny’s blog closely, the more I realise that experience/nous counts for a great deal in modelling.

I’m following the plan and the (very) basic instructions. Not too much problem there but a) not all the detail needed is there and b) there are still some aspects that can be done several ways. An experienced builder might handle many of these in their sleep and then mull over the others for a short while before working out how best to achieve the desired result. This is where thinking 5 steps ahead comes in handy, as they mentioned. I’m starting to try and think much further ahead and it seems to be paying off – but only greater experience (and hopefully increased skill levels) will make this second nature.

Anyway, enough musing and here's the latest progress.

F3 and F4 have been added to one of the fuse sides. I only have the one engineer's square so I improvised with a sliding square/rule jobbie and some clamps to keep it all upright. F3 was quite straightforward (once I'd carefully marked where it sat on the fuse halves to make sure the angle was correct) but F3 was slightly bowed. I needed to clamp it to the solid part of the fuse end using a bit of ply and some pins. Seemed to work OK.

The other fuse half was then added, clamped and checked for alignment. When the epoxy had dried I added the missing gussets and cross braces then transferred it to the jig, ready to add the other formers and the cross pieces. The tail aligns nicely when drawn together so that's a relief.

The motor, ESC and battery bits came today. The 5000 5s 'brick' weighs a fair bit and is quite a size so I'll have a bit of fun seeing how to fir it all in. There looks to be plenty of room, it's just a case of how best to arrange it with easy access and some flexibility for balancing. I'd not realised that the ESC didn't come with connectors so I'll need to order some for the battery end and other for the motor end.

All part of the learning curve......

[Danny Fenton]

Posted by kc on 21/03/2014 19:23:19:
I noticed that Pat used a 900kv as he was using 4S while someone else used a 1100kv because he used only 3S. So they used a motor with a suitable Kv for the battery they used. That's the important part that went unmentioned in your other thread.
Actually they both used bigger ( heavier) Lipo's than I expected so maybe they would go further back. It all depends on how heavy (at the tail end )your model turns out, so it's best to make provision for enough adjustment of the Lipo position.
The reason for building one side over the other is to ensure they are exactly the same width and the uprights are in exactly the same place. Its easy to feel a tiny difference in width etc but harder to spot by eye whether they are exactly on the lines of the plan. Having them exactly the same makes it easier to avoid banana shaped fuselages!

Looking good

How come you have gone for a 5000 pack Nigel, I thought you were going 4000?

Which motor?

Cheers

Danny