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Laser 180 Petrol


Jon H
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I'm a little shocked by these revelations, given all Jon's hard work and enthusiasm to produce the initial batch but I suppose there could be good reasons why those feedback reports haven't been forthcoming - perhaps any of those who committed to buying at the reduced price might feel that they owe Jon a few words of explanation if they happen to read this thread - not necessarily in public of course and I'm sure a PM to Jon would be welcomed.

Although I have no particular enthusiasm for petrol as an alternative to glow, some of the Saito 4 strokes I've heard have sounded very nice and I can understand that there's an attraction for the more easily obtainable fuel for some people.

There are many people who appreciate your work Jon and I hope you can find enough job satisfaction to keep you interested well into the future.

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Martin I totally agree with your post above. Sadly it seems (and has been mentioned here by Jon in the past ) that there are some buyers of Laser engines who are more “engine collectors” than Flyers. Unfortunately when new stock arrives of “ rare engines “ these guys are fast to buy them up and put them in their cabinets. Sadly with Lasers limited production capacity that leaves less stock for flyers. I’m a committed glow engine guy so didn’t volunteer for the petrol as i have no petrol power models. However I have visited his factory many times and watched the project with interest from the start ... it seems possible some of the early “disappeared “guys just wanted discounted engines to collect

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Martin I totally agree with your post above. Sadly it seems (and has been mentioned here by Jon in the past ) that there are some buyers of Laser engines who are more “engine collectors” than Flyers. Unfortunately when new stock arrives of “ rare engines “ these guys are fast to buy them up and put them in their cabinets. Sadly with Lasers limited production capacity that leaves less stock for flyers. I’m a committed glow engine guy so didn’t volunteer for the petrol as i have no petrol power models. However I have visited his factory many times and watched the project with interest from the start ... it seems possible some of the early “disappeared “guys just wanted discounted engines to collect

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Tim, we have had 'collector' trouble before with our diesel engines. That and one individual buying a number of them and then selling them on ebay for 4 times their original price. I cant say that has happened here but who really knows. My suspicion is that their excitement and enthusiasm was genuine, but once they had it in hand they were not really sure what to do with it.

Martin, i am really on the fence about petrol these days. I run glow engines from about 5 brands and they are great fun. They run well, are easy to use, and easy to install. Then i think about the petrol, the faff of installation, the sensitivity to heat, and the fact that i have to haul a fire bottle with me in case the darn thing goes up. I think about all that and go 'ah forget it, glow is easier'...But then i will put one of my 180 petrol's on the bench/fly my stampe and they just work so nicely, sound great, are completely clean and are just so smooth on their throttle response that i forget all about the negatives. Its really a tough call as both have their advantages and disadvantages.

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Posted by Tim Flyer on 13/03/2020 07:35:44:

Martin I totally agree with your post above. Sadly it seems (and has been mentioned here by Jon in the past ) that there are some buyers of Laser engines who are more “engine collectors” than Flyers. Unfortunately when new stock arrives of “ rare engines “ these guys are fast to buy them up and put them in their cabinets. Sadly with Lasers limited production capacity that leaves less stock for flyers. I’m a committed glow engine guy so didn’t volunteer for the petrol as i have no petrol power models. However I have visited his factory many times and watched the project with interest from the start ... it seems possible some of the early “disappeared “guys just wanted discounted engines to collect

Well perhaps.

Then there are modellers like me. When I retired to France in 2015, I sold my house in England and was well-wedged so I ordered three new Laser glow engines from Jon: two 70s and a 155. My intention was to fly the 70s in vintage or sports models before building a Blenheim and fitting the Lasers to that. The 155 was to go in a DB Sport and Scale SE5.

Spool on five years and what has been achieved? One of the 70s is in the nose of a Big Guff but I still have to build the wings for this model and make up the undercarriage and install the radio . Another 70 is earmarked for an ARTF Acro Wot which I have started to assemble but I really can't work up much enthusiasm for ARTFs.The SE5 remains in its box on the shelf next to the engine I bought for it.

So what have I been doing all this time? Nothing really other than renovating a house, gardening, teaching nervous elderly beginners how to fly circuits with battered ARTF trainers, building and repairing my own existing models, particpating in La Coupe Des Barons a daft, destructive but very enjoyable event for a funny looking three channel French trainer 300 miles south from where I live and then on 12th January 2019 two pairs of eyes met across a crowded library floor in Dun Le Palestel and two lives have never been the same again.

Maybe the guys who bought the petrol engines have also had other distractions and just as a final note, I turned seventy-two the day before yesterday, this is a greying hobby, maybe some of them are no longer with us.

Edited By David Davis on 13/03/2020 08:39:49

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DD i see what you are getting at but this is different. You never agreed to get the engines flying in a week as part of a dedicated test program and didnt accept the discounts that came with that agreement.

Nigel, good question. Its possible i am worrying too much about it but equally i can see a few areas that we could improve and its likely to leave a sour taste if those who buy the first ones then find an improved version comes out months later. Thats another reason the pre production engines were sold cheaper as it was known they were pre production and may be replaced by an upgraded production model.

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Maybe, maybe not. Every successful project has a very well defined end goal. Maybe you just need to figure out exactly what you need to get the 180 & 155 to "complete". My thoughts are that if you don't see major mechanical changes being needed then the motor itself is there. Minor mechanical changes, maybe the first batch has to be covered by the disclaimer of a potential recall for a small mod. Getting the instructions debugged, well yes, you need that, for sure, but how many more beta testers (or indeed owners) do you need to go through them before they reach "maturity"? 1? 5? 20? 100? As the saying goes, a product only ever really completes its test programme when the last unit is sold to the last customer... Just thinking out loud.

As an aside, I'd love to help out but I don't have anything big enough to trial one on, or budget to buy one with.

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I would have been satisfied if all of the 10 pre production engines went without any major problems beyond the predicted issue of the prop driver slipping. Of the 5 that have been used there have been some minor pump issues, but the addition of a tension spring should fix that.

I will chat to the boss. Certainly there seems to be interest here and this recent exchange has brought it back into my mind so perhaps we can push it forward.

 

As for cost, we all have our model budget. Some guys spend 30k on a jet, most of us cant afford that. The petrol will be quite expensive but will also be competitive. My new project will also not be a cheap item and is likely to have a limited market, but it will win points for being unique so should attract some attention and sufficient sales to make it worth while. 

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 13/03/2020 10:34:13

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Very frustrating Jon when pre-production engines are sold at a discount on the understanding that they will be thoroughly tested with feed back given - but not angry. Perhaps once the weather improves some of the hoarders will be prompted to get their engines out of the box, bolt them in a model and actually fly them!

I too am interested in a 180 petrol when/if production engines ever become available. I have a suitable airframe (World Models Piper Pawnee, 108in span) and will probably have some time too before too long with a bit of luck.

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 13/03/2020 14:20:06

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My thoughts Jon, and this is a compliment, you are too fussy. I recommissioned a favourite airframe today, repaired after sitting in the corner for 2 years following an ill judged manoeuvre. The Laser that powers it, 30 odd years old, cleared its storage oil, and chugged into life, and then continued to work through the session. Point is a quality product remains quality product. Not as good as the latest production motor but fit for purpose.

Edited By Don Fry on 13/03/2020 15:56:14

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Piers, email me and i will put you on the list.

Don, you hit the nail on the head.

People expect a laser to just work. it has to be perfect.

Reputation takes years to build a seconds to destroy. I have to get it right and if i dont, the world will know immediately through the power of the internet.

Other companies have produced lemons over the years. The OS 70 FL, 70 ultimate, and 200 surpass were not their best work. Saito have had nightmares with their petrol engines and it takes 2 seconds in google to find all the gory details. The thing is, OS and Saito are big enough to ride out that sort of storm, Laser is not.

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Arrrr Jon. At what point do you dread the basic motor melting, seizing, going crack in flight. You trust it enough on your Stampe. And if the carby is different, instructions can evolve online according to experience.

BTW, I am an honest broker, I have concluded, a glow motor is an easier option at 30 cc. And I have no desire to go bigger.

Also BTW, the Laser 75 I am still running is not perfect, just fit for purpose.

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  • 1 year later...

Its been a long time coming but the next batch of pre production petrol engines are getting closer. I hope to have 5 ready by the end of the month with more to follow if there is sufficient interest. 

 

My current list of interested parties is so out of date i am going to abandon it and start again. 

 

The engines are 30cc and offer the same performance as a 180 glow. The idea behind this is to get feedback from customers on problems they have so things like instruction sheets can be updated for production engines. For this to work the engine needs to be actually used. This is where our testing fell over last time as only 3 of the 10 engines were ever used. Since then i have built 3 more, which are in use, but its still not a good ratio. 

 

If you suspect you cannot get the engine into a model and flying for this coming spring i would ask you not buy one until testing is completed as i really need air time on the limited number of engines that will be available. I also ask that you only buy an engine if you actually want one to use and not just because it is new and shiny or you want to do me a favour. If you have been dreaming of 30cc petrol engines then great, if not then its fine.  

 

The type of model flown is not important. Sport, scale, whatever. As long as its a model you enjoy flying and will fly fairly regularly all is well. The petrol is a drop in replacement for the glow if that helps anyone with model choice. 

 

Another thing is that anyone buying one is not testing the engine as such, just using it. By that i mean i do not need you to try 50 different props and a new fuel mix every weekend. Pick the fuel/oil you would normally use (aspen premix 50:1, aspen home mix 40:1 or pump petrol home mix 40:1) and a prop that best suits your model and then leave it alone. If a conrod seizes and you have used 5 different oils in as many flights (yes, someone did this with the first round of engines) how can i possibly diagnose what went wrong? Just use the engine as you normally would, forget all about testing it. Using it is the test and if you use it without problems, you and the engine pass. 

 

I hope all that makes sense and isnt too grumpy. I just dont want to be calling people each week hounding them for an update. It makes my life difficult and its not ideal for customer relations! 

 

If anyone is interested in an engine please let me know. 

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Jon, just a suggestion based on what happened last time... Request any testers pay the full retail price you are going to market it at, but offer them a rebate once they have completed x flights and given you their feedbackl. That should avoid too much "dusty shelf collecting" this time around.

 

Matt (who doesn't own a single IC engine at this point, but might be tempted by a petrol 180 warbird in future)

Edited by MattyB
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1 minute ago, MattyB said:

Jon, just a suggestion based on what happened last time... Request any testers pay the full retail price you are going to market it at, but offer them a rebate once they have completed x flights and given you their feedbackl. That should avoid too much "dusty shelf collecting" this time around.

 

Matt (who doesn't own a single IC engine at this point, but might be tempted by a petrol 180 warbird in future)

 

Yea i have thought about all that sort of thing but its not a nice thing to have to do. Ultimately it is a help to me that people buy these pre production engines and i am asking them for assistance with feedback etc. To hold their money ransom feels a bit off. Its also a pain in the backside to do the admin and it leaves the door open for arguments about how much feedback is sufficient to get their rebate. 

 

Nothing is ever simple ? 

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Hi Jon,

            As I have said mine is fitted in an old 84 inch sig spacewalker , using aspen2 , and flies so well I do not want to move it to my precedent stamps. Even since now putting the cowl on the front I have not touched either mixture control , since it came from you ,and it runs like a sewing machine.

If possible could I go one the list for another one for my stamps please? Bit cheeky I know but if not I would have to fit my 150 glow

Bill

Edited by William Macleod
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The GA30 is a single cylinder engine and they are really nice. I had some initial problems with mine (air in system which I didn’t realise so ‘tweaked’ the needles - big mistake!). Resolved with Jon and they have been running great over the last (couple of?) years. In between models at the moment, one was planned for my Wots Wot XL (currently Laser 180) but that is now reserved for a ‘different’ Laser so will probably go back in my Sbach.

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