So I can hover - what next

[Eifion Herbert]

Been getting back into helicopters recently. I'm able to reliably hover my nano CPX through battery after battery, but don't really have a lounge big enough to risk flying it around without hitting anything. What's the next step after hovering?

I used to have a Raptor 30 back in the day, never really got competent enough with that to get beyond barely contained panic, but seem to be doing OK so far with the nano CPX, so looking for something I can fly outside. What's a good copter for a novice at collective pitch machines, would consider electric or IC.

[Allan Bennett]

These days I would suggest that electric is the only way to go. As for what to get, I went for a T-Rex 500 when I stepped up from an indoor coaxial, because I figured it could handle the wind better than a 450 size and, thus, give me more opportunities to practice. I was able to go into the lee of some bushes and practice the hover on many days when fixed-wing club members were grounded.

One of our club members recently got an Align T-Rex 450L, which also seems to handle the wind rather well.

Spares for Align are readily available from many sources. What you end up with, though, might be determined by what your local model shop (if you have one) stocks, and is able to get spares for.

[Frank Skilbeck]

I bought a Blade 300x and that's been really good outside and only uses 1300 mah 3s batteries. But Allan is right the bigger ones will be better still.

[Eifion Herbert]

How much space does the blade 300x need? Is it viable to fly it around a smallish garden? That would certainly increase the availability of practice times. 500 sized heli while nice I'm sure gets me a bit worried about the time the big batteries take to charge, Assume my current Turingy charger won't be up to the task, it's 6A max I think.

Really struggling to find any sport / trainer type IC helicopters so looks like electric is the way to go. Bit of a shame really, as convenient as electric is you can't beat the refuelling time of IC.

[John F]

A bit of prior planning when it comes to recharging batteries certainly beats the mess and hassle of IC with erratic starting, idle issues, fuel storage, the stink of the fuel, cleaning the model of the oily exhaust residue and spilt fuel as well as the noise of an IC heli possibly annoying neighbours. (Well, not possibly, more like probably annoying the neighbours!)

I know many would argue till the cows come home but this is my experience.

For me IC is hardly convenient.

All you need is a couple or three batteries and you're sorted. Once you've gone through three it is time to take a rest anyway.

With one iMax B6 and a parrallel board costing £7 you can do more than one battery at a time anyway so you should have no issues.

Edited By John F on 16/10/2015 15:53:08

[Allan Bennett]

Posted by Eifion Herbert on 16/10/2015 14:56:47:

. . . Assume my current Turingy charger won't be up to the task, it's 6A max I think. . . .

My 500 uses 6S 2600mAh packs, and my 550 uses two of them in parallel, for 5200mAh. I charge them at 1C, which is only 2.6A if done singly, or 5.2A in parallel. Whether or not your charger can handle it depends on its volts rating (i.e. cell-count) as well as its amps capability or, to put it another way, it's total watts capability.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Eifion Herbert on 16/10/2015 14:56:47:

How much space does the blade 300x need? Is it viable to fly it around a smallish garden? That would certainly increase the availability of practice times. 500 sized heli while nice I'm sure gets me a bit worried about the time the big batteries take to charge, Assume my current Turingy charger won't be up to the task, it's 6A max I think.

Depends how big your garden is, I've hovered mine in my back garden (usually after replacing the main gear after an arrival....), but even though it's only a 300 it's still scary if it gets too close. For flying around, tennis court size would be about right.

[Jack Banner]

To answer the first question, I would say the next step is pirouettes in both directions with your Nano. When you can do these quickly and slowly, without moving from the spot, you will have much better control over the heli in all orientations. Get a 450 or the 300x and fly outside as well though

I started on a Nano CPX and learned to hover it in my front room. Like you I couldn't fly it in the house though as it would get away from me and destroy things. Flying outside with a 450 really helped as I had room to make mistakes and catch it before it hit something.

Do you have a simulator? Any of them will do as it's main purpose is to ensure you always push the sticks in the right direction.They are invaluable for saving you money and mine has saved me thousands of pounds in crash costs. I can now fly circuits and simple aerobatics with my 450x and 450L and have yet (!) to have a crash with either.

Good luck

[Eifion Herbert]

Thanks for all the tips - I'm afraid it's only sparked more questions!

First about the charging: My charcher is a Turingy accucell 6. It will charge a 6s lipo at 6 amps, so am I right in thinking it's max power output is 133 Watt? (6x 22). In that case if I wanted to power it off the mains (for convenience) I'd need a 12v power supply capable of delivering that wattage - not that I have anything bigger than a 3s 2200 at the moment. Currently I power the charger from a 17000 mAh lead acid battery originally form a golf cart.

Also parallel boards - wow never knew there was such a thing, looks like an awesome way to get more stick time on smaller models, currently I have 2 batteries for the nano, so that's 8 mins stick time then over an hour to charge them back up. Am I right in thinking if I had a 300x and were charging a pair of 1300 mAh at the same I'd have to tell the charger it was a 3s and set the current to 2.6A? and if I added a third I'd set the current to 3.9A and a 4th would put it up to 5.2A

My garden is this size:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMXPf7ArF2U

This was a quick demo I did with my Blade 450 when I sold it a few years ago (which I am now regretting but that's what I always do, sell things and later rebuy them!) The 450 was too big for even hovering practice to be useful in the garden, wonder how a 300 would go, or should I get a 180CFX - I guess what I'm after is something I can do more with than just hovering practice but that I can get time on without needing to go up to the model club, I figure more time on the sticks = faster progress. Maybe I should just take the nano outside if it's not windy. How's the T-rex 250 compare? I see lots of them on ebay for not silly money.

Tried a pirouette with the nano, it did not go well, got about a third of the way round before it got away from me and crashed into the sofa. Should I try hovering side in and nose in first? I've been attempting that but find I can it round to about 45 degrees and hold a good hover there but as it gets more and more side on I very quickly loose it. More time on the sim to train my fingers then!

[Ben Kenobi]

Forget anything with a motor for the tail rotor is number one for anything 'serious', I prefer torque tube to belt.

You really need to be able to hover it in all orientations without even thinking about it. I know that some will argue the point but if you can't handle a consistent hover in all orientations you aren't ready for forward flight.

Forget 3D - forget anything to do with 3D - sorry that includes 'pirouettes'. Step one is hover in all orientations, step 2 is to move backwards and forwards all orientations, step three move side to side in all orientations, step four fly a simple circle clockwise then anticlockwise (don't stick rigidly to one - you need to get good at both) - which adds tail control to the hovering, then turn the circle into a figure 8 which adds a change of direction. Try to keep your launch point at the centre of the pattern.

Build it all up slow, can't be impatient with this, it all needs to be instinctive.

I'd also make sure that you set the Helicopter up for 'scale' and NOT 3D - most of the advice out there is for setting up blade pitch etc etc to suit 3D which is absolutely the worst possible config for a learner. I'd do some googling on scale helicopter pitch curve and go from there, this will 'tame' the responses, OK it will be harder to get out of trouble - but it will also be harder to get into trouble in the first place. Setup is as important as your skills are.

As far as helicopters to use as a trainer goes it is a little counter intuitive - bigger is better as they are more stable. Anything petrol is becoming an issue everywhere - noise, don't get a no name bird, make sure that there are plenty of spares available - you will crash, just accept the lesson and move on.

Get a trainer / simulator - Realflight 7.5 would be my choice and get plenty of hours in - this will help with the orientation skills and prevent the destruction of house / helicopter / relationships ...

I guess my last warning - if you feel yourself getting to the point where burn out has set in i.e. your concentration is failing walk away - put it down, I wouldn't be aiming for lots and lots of back to back flights, end the day on a high - not a crash as it helps the confidence no end - then of course the 'don't get cocky' rule starts to apply forget what others can do and concentrate on what you can do.

[Eifion Herbert]

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement. Been practicing nose-in / side in hovering in Phoenix. Bloody hell it's difficult. I never remember fixed wing being this difficult to learn, model or full size! I assume if I keep practicing it will click eventually.

I notice in the sim that anything with a flybar is generally more sedate than flybarless - assume this is true in real life too. Should I be going for something with a flybar for an outdoor size heli, or is it just a matter of setting up appropriate rates and curves regardless of the head mechanics?

[Jack Banner]

I wouldn't go for a flybarred heli. You can tame down any flybarless that you buy. Reduced rates, lower headspeed and some expo will all help.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yup it's true, the control lag you are sensing is very noticeable after you've flown flybarless, flybarred also tend to drift unless you are constantly on top of them so you need to be almost psychic. Ground effect seems to be more pronounced in flybarred but that could be down to me.

Stick with it you'll get there, keep it simple and stick to it but vary the exercises, you will find that initially when you get good at one orientation you lose some on the other, pretty soon this will level out and you can easily switch, then you can add more to the practice. I haven't forgotten my early days, they weren't so long ago, just keep at it, the sense of achievement will be its own reward. Maybe record some of your flights for nostalgia.

I'm not sure about Phoenix but Realflight has challenges in it and these are pretty good to break the monotony and also challenge the skills.

Rates etc matter for sure hence the set it up for scale not 3D comment, I don't think there is much difference really that can be attributed to flybarred versus 'DFC' (flybarless).

I'd never go back to a fly barred head.

[Allan Bennett]

Posted by Eifion Herbert on 17/10/2015 08:56:36:

. . . First about the charging: My charcher is a Turingy accucell 6. It will charge a 6s lipo at 6 amps, so am I right in thinking it's max power output is 133 Watt? (6x 22). In that case if I wanted to power it off the mains (for convenience) I'd need a 12v power supply capable of delivering that wattage - not that I have anything bigger than a 3s 2200 at the moment. Currently I power the charger from a 17000 mAh lead acid battery originally form a golf cart.

Also parallel boards - wow never knew there was such a thing, looks like an awesome way to get more stick time on smaller models, currently I have 2 batteries for the nano, so that's 8 mins stick time then over an hour to charge them back up. Am I right in thinking if I had a 300x and were charging a pair of 1300 mAh at the same I'd have to tell the charger it was a 3s and set the current to 2.6A? and if I added a third I'd set the current to 3.9A and a 4th would put it up to 5.2A . . .

If your charger can charge 6S at 6 amps then its power is 6 x 4.20 x 6 = 151.2 watts because it should be based on the fully-charged voltage of the battery. So to match it you need a stabilised power supply of at least that many watts capability. With your 17000mAh golf cart battery you'll maybe get two or three charges of a 6S 2200mAh pack before the voltage drops below what the charger can handle.

Your maths is right for parallel charging. If you have modern batteries though, they can probably safely take more than 1C charge rate, so proportionately reduce the charge time. There are some (maybe just one) downsides to parallel charging boards that you need to be aware of; If the balance lead on one of the parallel batteries, or its connection to the board, is faulty, the charger won't realise that one of its cells is disconnected from the balance board because it will still "see" the voltage of the other packs that are connected to the board. The cell that's not connected can therefore get out of balance with the rest -- maybe under-charged, or maybe over-charged.

[AJ]

If you are using 3 cell batteries then you can get a 6 to 2 X 3 cell adaptor which will allow you to charge 2 batteries as if they are a single 6 cell. This has the advantage that the charger can balance all 6 cells properly. They are available from HK and elsewhere. Better than parallel charging

A

[Eifion Herbert]

Posted by AJ on 17/10/2015 22:22:01:

If you are using 3 cell batteries then you can get a 6 to 2 X 3 cell adaptor which will allow you to charge 2 batteries as if they are a single 6 cell. This has the advantage that the charger can balance all 6 cells properly. They are available from HK and elsewhere. Better than parallel charging

A

Interesting, might be useful for my fixed wing stuff too, I mostly fly 3s 2200. Would I be looking to wire up the cells in series then, effectively making a 6s 2200 pack? How about the balance connector I'm guessing they would still need to be wired up in parallel?

[Allan Bennett]

Posted by Eifion Herbert on 18/10/2015 11:26:38:

Posted by AJ on 17/10/2015 22:22:01:

If you are using 3 cell batteries then you can get a 6 to 2 X 3 cell adaptor which will allow you to charge 2 batteries as if they are a single 6 cell. This has the advantage that the charger can balance all 6 cells properly. They are available from HK and elsewhere. Better than parallel charging

A

Interesting, might be useful for my fixed wing stuff too, I mostly fly 3s 2200. Would I be looking to wire up the cells in series then, effectively making a 6s 2200 pack? How about the balance connector I'm guessing they would still need to be wired up in parallel?

No, if the main leads are in series, the balance leads also have to be in series. Presumably the wiring of the adapter does this for you.

[John F]

Don't know why I have two posts

Edited By John F on 19/10/2015 12:51:42

[John F]

Posted by John F on 19/10/2015 12:45:44:

Posted by Eifion Herbert on 18/10/2015 11:26:38:

Posted by AJ on 17/10/2015 22:22:01:

If you are using 3 cell batteries then you can get a 6 to 2 X 3 cell adaptor which will allow you to charge 2 batteries as if they are a single 6 cell. This has the advantage that the charger can balance all 6 cells properly. They are available from HK and elsewhere. Better than parallel charging

A

Interesting, might be useful for my fixed wing stuff too, I mostly fly 3s 2200. Would I be looking to wire up the cells in series then, effectively making a 6s 2200 pack? How about the balance connector I'm guessing they would still need to be wired up in parallel?

 

I would not worry about the balance argument as it will still balance the batteries.  The debate can rage on and on and on and on with regards to parallel charging or series charging!!

For a very good lowdown on charging batteries in parallel look here: **LINK** 

There is another good link here: **LINK**

 

Edited By John F on 19/10/2015 12:50:15

[stephen canham]

The larger the heli the more stable it is.I bought myself a hirobo shuttle and yep had a few crashes, So i up graded parts on it, the only thing that is still the shuttle is the frame, Everything else is align, The biggest challenge was the getting the align head to fit, As the align 600 head and shaft are 10mm and on my shuttle the main gear is 8mm So igot some 10mm steel bar and machined the end too 8mm, So much more stable, As for the head speed you need around 1700rpm at hover. if it too low the heli will bounce. the engine on mine is a evine 36 and i use 12% nitro.

[Lunch-time flyer]

Very interesting post, I am guessing by the number of people who've read this and the relative few that have commented that there are lots of people in this situation, I think the nano's (and mCPX for me) have given a lot of us an entry to the heli world at an affordable price and now need somewhere to move onto, it's certainly true for me.

I'm tempted by a Trex 450, although I have seen a cheap Century 500 but I'm a bit worried it's too old (spares, flybar etc) - and no-one talks about them so also worry for the help side - but it's nice and big

[Ian Southerton 1]

I had a couple of lessons from a professional last August, but can still only hover!

I bought a Trex550 as advised by a friend at work, but because of the bad weather and lack of time (to drive to my flying site) have only flown it for 2 batteries duration.

Same guy then advised me to buy an MCPX which I played with in the house, It's really twitchy, doesn't ever seem to want to hover in the same place for more than a second, but gave me experience and confidence to fly the 550 which was loads more stable and easier to fly in comparison.

When it's calm, I fly the MCPX around the garden, and fly circles with me walking behind it. It's getting me used to flying side on, but if it starts to get away, i can step forward and get it back!

[David Hall 9]

I'm trying some small helis after playing with toy grade quadcopters. Although I had some years flying fixed wing many years ago, I felt that the quadcopters helped enormously with regaining orientation skills.

If orientation is a problem for you, I'd recommend flying something gentle indoors to practice. Of the few that I have, the Syma X11 is a very well mannered quad and is small enough to fly circuits in a small living room (and can take a beating). A nano heli will allow the same orientation practice, but I find that much of my time is spent fighting with it just to keep it in a hover.

[ken anderson.]

check out ....THE MAN....amazing...

ken anderson...ne....1..... co-ordination skills dept...

[David P Williams]

A 650cc engine too !