Do you think some sort of registration system would protect the hobby from rogue flyers?

[Erfolg]

I am completely baffled by the idea that having to have a "A" cert, or to be insured does anything at all but ensure that our hobby will be denied quite a few modellers in the future. Many responsible people will be deterred. Irresponsible individuals, will just not bother. Where does such requirement leave children? Like it or not, children do like to play with flying toys. Are they the ones causing the problems? Probably not.

Will it stop some drone flyers acting irresponsibly? Definitely not, Peter and others have run through the arguments as to why not. As highlighted gun crime is a daily occurrence in many of our cities, that is with so much recent legislation and controls on firearms. Yet many, many years earlier without all these requirements etc, gun crime was an exceptional occurrence.

I guess you either see bureaucracy as the way forward, or recognise it for what it is.

Perhaps just as relevant to responsible modellers, what benefits would we get. History shows us non. Who remembers when we paid for a RC transmission Licence to the GPO. Do you remember the positive actions taken by the GPO to protect us from CB radios? Neither do I!

[Rich too]

What/who are rogue flyers?  I must have missed the memo.

There is already far too much red tape in this world, its becoming a bit of a joke.

 

Edited By Rich2 on 12/02/2016 06:44:49

[Chris Whalley]

It would be like trying to register car drivers who already adopt a responsible approach and pass their test and tax/insure their vehicle. It's the ones that don't do these things that are the problem on the roads. Membership of the BMFA is akin to these things for aeromodellers. So no I personally I don't think any additional registration would do any good. That's my two pen natch said.

[Erfolg]

Some do seem to miss the true nature of rogue drone operators, as like it or not, these are the people who have caused the scale of the present interest of the authorities.

There are at least two groups, the irresponsible and the criminal.

The criminal element has generally been ignored by this thread. It seems from reports in the media that drones are now being used to deliver drugs, beating Amazon in their quest. Apparently it has become a preferred method for moving quite large by total volume, drugs across the Mexico, USA border. From one description it appears that they take of in one location, deliver to another that is some distance away, where the load is self deposited and then returning to a third location. All of this sounds autonomous to me.

I understand again from the media that something similar is now increasingly frequent in the UK, although this time it is depositing a volume of drugs in a Prison.

Would registration or the requirement for insurance prevent such activities. I would expect that some of these devices are by my standards big and expensive, yet the financial gains from success make the risk of losses worth while to this group.

As to the irresponsible operator, they either know what they are doing is not allowed or sensible, or do not care. I doubt if they will bother registering. loose the device cause an accident, they will live with it. Non registration would for many be seen as a benefit increasing the difficulty of tracing.

[Rich too]

Cars, boats and planes all require registering, that has never deterred the criminal element.

[J D 8]

Posted by Rich2 on 12/02/2016 09:42:59:

Cars, boats and planes all require registering, that has never deterred the criminal element.

You can cross off boats but add Gun's.

[bouncebounce crunch]

No is my answer.

I am sure this now active scenario was mentioned a few years back on this very site.

1) most modelling clubs have registered member list and a level of solo standard applied.

2) tax grab my cynical eyes see.

3) show your model club ID at the hobby shop before getting that 20cc model.

i can buy fireworks over the internet in Australia but i will not recieve them i would get arrested when i go to get the package.

so maybe you buy through a registered outlet and fly in a designated area only. But where does that leave scratch builders? life is getting too complicated for this enjoyer of life.

[Rich too]

Posted by john davies 8 on 12/02/2016 10:29:50:

Posted by Rich2 on 12/02/2016 09:42:59:

Cars, boats and planes all require registering, that has never deterred the criminal element.

You can cross off boats but add Gun's.

Not completely true, some waterways require registration - but I take your point!

[edited for language]

 

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 12/02/2016 17:10:20

[Swissflyer]

When I wanted insurance here in Switzerland, the insurance company told me that I had to be a member of a registered model flying club.

The club shares the airfield with full size, light aircraft and has a strict procedure.

They asked me to put in six appearances and fly with the supervision of a senior club member, there was strictly no flying alone at the club site during that phase.

Once that was done & they were sure that I knew the procedures for giving priority to full size aircraft, they gave me the forms to apply for insurance and club membership.

So is this a “Win-Win” procedure? To my mind “Yes”.

The insurance company knows that insurance is being given to “checked out” pilots.

The club knows the capabilities of the new member well and the airfield knows that the club members know the local procedures.

The new member meets experienced local pilots, they are nice guys who really help.

It also means that most of the modelling community is in a club; however, the insurance is world wide so I can also fly with insurance cover in the field outside my front door.

This also means that any “apparently irresponsible” flying by uninsured, unqualified people can be checked as the friendly policeman will check your insurance card to be sure that you have been checked out.

And of course he can take away your model on the grounds that you have no insurance.
So yes, there are rogues, but they don't seem to last long...

[Cabbage Man]

One thing I considered is that whilst we all agree that registration will not stop the rogue element, it does send a very good message to the CAA that we are trying to help and that the guys that are registered can be left alone.

Im sure the CAA will look to the BMFA for help and may wish to take the membership details as a form of registration. I have no issue with displaying my BMFA membership on my model as proof .

'Times they are a changing' as some old fart once sang.

What we must not have is clubs deciding to be 'extra helpful' to the CAA and introducing any form of additional rules or regulations on the misguided belief it makes them look good . I can see many doing that . Id always advocate doing JUST whats asked of you and not one step further.

 

In response to swiss flyer, nice ideas that seem to work well. Unfortunately many brits shun any form of organised thinking like this and tend to be turned off from joining clubs that ask to many questions. A lot of our flying is done under the noses of the law  ( planning, Health and safety, CAA  etc)  as we fear the consequences. You certainly don't see models and full size on the same site.

Edited By Electric God on 12/02/2016 15:47:02

[Ernie]

What a load of nonsense? It's the advance of the grey suits. or for those who consider our hobby to be a sport The advance of the blazer brigade

ernie

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Bob Dylan wrote it and many other good songs, including " Hards rains gonna fall" he was correct both times

John

[graeme jones]

No.

In any case the cost (to us) of registration would be prohibitive. Factor in the cost of Civil Servants to administer, premises for them to work in, computers etc. etc. and you would soon be on the wrong side of £50. Per model.

I too remember when we had to have a licence to use R/C equipment. That was scrapped because it cost more to administer than it ever took in licence fees, and the government then had more sense than is the case these days.

I haven't voted because it's a non-starter. At least I hope it is.

Graeme

[Glyn R]

More bureaucratic rubbish. This has already been introduced in the US. It will become another means of controlling the population. It will not be free who will pay for the useless parasites who operate the system? We will!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not been as depressing as I thought it would be this thread

I will have to disagree that Many clubs will add to any changes that may come though, many don't even require an A for you to fly, and many clubs are just the same as the free spirits amongst us.

Just want to enjoy our hobby the same as the rest.

John

[Bernard Koussoulos]

Are we talking drone flyers here or rc in genral ?I don,t think any kind of registration or big brother tactics will make any diferance ,this has kicked off becouse of irisponsible drone flying it,s not the guy who wants to fly on his lone some that would be an infringment on our libarty catch the idiot drone flyers who feel they must fly in air space for civil and military air craft Please don,t start making this hobby just for the few who can throw money at it , we don,t all have deep pockets i persnaly am happy to join the BMF for insurance reasons but i,m damnd if i will be dictated to about were and with whom i can fly with . no doubt this post will get some flack so bring it on .

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Electric God on 12/02/2016 15:38:50:

One thing I considered is that whilst we all agree that registration will not stop the rogue element, it does send a very good message to the CAA that we are trying to help and that the guys that are registered can be left alone.

Ah, at last, someone gets the point! The objective of registration - as the thread title suggests - is to help protect the hobby, not to catch the rogues! The repeated mantra "this won;t stop rogue flyers" is absolutely true! But in the context we intended completely irrleavant! EG has it spot on - by agreeing to registration we distinguish ourselves from the rogues and hence stand a better chance of being left to get on with it without outside interferance.

Regarding expense - it need not cost very much at all - build it around the existing BMFA membership system. No additional civil servants required, the process is already in place - just use it. That has the advantage of being "self regulating" - no outside agancy needed. After all such a system works perfectly well in gliding as I understand it.

The fear is that if we don't come up with something self-regulating that is robust - then we may be regulated from outside and I am sure that would be much worse.

BEB

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by Bernard Koussoulos on 12/02/2016 17:15:23:

Are we talking drone flyers here or rc in genral ?I don,t think any kind of registration or big brother tactics will make any diferance ,this has kicked off becouse of irisponsible drone flying it,s not the guy who wants to fly on his lone some that would be an infringment on our libarty catch the idiot drone flyers who feel they must fly in air space for civil and military air craft Please don,t start making this hobby just for the few who can throw money at it , we don,t all have deep pockets i persnaly am happy to join the BMF for insurance reasons but i,m damnd if i will be dictated to about were and with whom i can fly with . no doubt this post will get some flack so bring it on .

You already are "dictated to" regarding where and how you fly - its called the Air Navigation Order and its the law of the land - and if you are not aware of this, then you are one of the irresponsible flyers! Registration will have no impact whatsoever regarding where you fly or whom you fly with.

[Erfolg]

I would start by asking the question, if we were required to register, what would we get from the authorities in return? Just remember what the GPO did for us?

Why should registration require all operators of small flying machines be required to have insurance. It seems that evens BEBs paper dart would need to be covered under the present ANO. To me insurance and the operation of a small flying device are separate issues to the present irresponsible operation of principally drones. I would be incensed if the justification for insurance were to be based on claims made against non compliant drone or other flyers, who probably would not register.

If any one sees registration as a back door means of the BMFA increasing its membership, I certainly will be writing to my MP if it were a requirement in any form. I am a a member of the BMFA although I see it as a choice, and that my membership and support should be earned.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Fine Erf - stand on your high principles - and await the decision of the politicans about your fate uninfluanced by any actual knowledge - I don't think it will be a pretty sight! But you'll have your principles to console you!

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 12/02/2016 17:39:49

[Kevin Wilson]

Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 12/02/2016 17:20:05:

by agreeing to registration we distinguish ourselves from the rogues and hence stand a better chance of being left to get on with it without outside interference.

Not sure I agree with you there BEB.

As soon as there is a registration scheme it absolutely mandates that they have to maintain the register and never ever leave us alone to get on with it.

I am a licensed radio Amateur, so have no problem with registration schemes. But to think that registration frees us from state interference is rather optimistic.

With my unrealistically hopeful head on, it would be good if the media (that stirred this 'drone' thing up in their gutter trawl for any story) would move on to some other 'crusade' and we can get back to safely flying in compliance with the ANO as we have for decades.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Kevin Wilson on 12/02/2016 18:15:15:

With my unrealistically hopeful head on, it would be good if the media (that stirred this 'drone' thing up in their gutter trawl for any story) would move on to some other 'crusade' and we can get back to safely flying in compliance with the ANO as we have for decades.

I think we'd all second that!

BEB

[Erfolg]

BEB

There are no principles in my thoughts. I am being hard headed and pragmatic.

I am asking questions, such as do we law abiding modellers get anything out of registration.

Who is the problem, so should I be concerned about them, other than distancing ourselves from them, Highlighting the outstanding record of fixed wing and helicopter model operators. I am absolutely certain that commercial drone operators as an organisation will be fighting for their self interest and have little cares about the hobby flyer. Recognising the situation, I expect our representatives to fight for the majority of its members.

I can see registration could be of benefit to commercial operators and may even welcome it

For us modellers there is no benefit that anyone has half successfully presented.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

On the contary Erf. I think that I, and one or two others, have very sucessfully presented the argument.

BEB

[Erfolg]

For one I find your argument far from convincing.

You are not recognising who is the issue. Not even as far as the regulator should see it.

Nor that registering or being required to be a member of any organisation will kill this hobby very quickly. May suit the commercial interest though.

The regulations as written now would make flying a paper dart illegal.