4-stroke recommendation

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by SuperNash on 31/10/2016 14:15:01:

Any ...scale aero display flyers who run with a laser up front?

There's Mr Tidey and his Moth for a start!

I suspect that Jon is referring to engines such as the 150 which were designed for reliability and handling qualities - aimed at the traditional 120 market...

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Yes fair do's Percy, crash damage is a cause for needing spares, dodgy thumbs is usual culprit though.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Jon H]

Posted by SuperNash on 31/10/2016 14:15:01:

"because our historical 'marketing' has left so many people with the wrong idea about our engines."

Are there any prominent F3A or IMAC contestants who fly laser?

Any 3d or scale aero display flyers who run with a laser up front?

No, as with most people competing in competition they follow what everyone else is doing, noone wants to break the mould, but that is not what i am on about and has little to do with marketing from a strategy point of view. And unless im mistaken i think most of the f3a gear is now electric so that market is pretty much a goner anyway! As for 3d, most of that market at competition/display level is large petrol jobs which is also not our market either so what they are using is not really important.

The market i am targeting is you guys, club modellers who fly an assortment of sport and scale models of various sizes. I will hopefully be doing things aimed at the large scale market specifically, but the current range is good at both.

Do i expect to see 3d models using our engines? no, as a general rule i dont, but could they do it if someone wanted, yes apparently they can.

Things like acrowot's large and small, Cap 232's, Extra's, Pitts's, etc are all no bother at all.

My twin pulse is awesome with the two 70's on it

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Scott Edwards 2]

"Lasers are for scale models"

Hahahaha oh no they're not I've had my Lasers in H9 Twist 40's, F3A Pattern Ships, Giles 120's, an Extra 260 and every Chris Foss plane you can name. On a couple of models I've had to put the battery behind the wing to balance, but that's it. A Laser will last a lifetime, I'm running a 1991 Laser150 in my H9 Funtana, still runs as good as new.

[Jon H]

Thats more like it

[Alan Hilton]

I have an early Laser 150 in a 1/4 scale extra 300 I got the engine at a swap meet very cheep due to knackerd bearings .I replaced both bearings and the old girl runs a treat .It has a ST carb and single bolt rocker cover so I assume it's at least 20 years old . It drags the extra around really well giving fully aerobatic performance

Alan

[Pete Carpenter]

It seems I'm being gently guided in the Laser direction and I have no problem with that at all, it's only the lower price tag of an ASP120 that gets my neck turning the other way! I know, I know - you get what you pay for...

Jon, you say your 100 would power the Eagle no problem, but does this take into account the increased draginess of such a plane, rather than just thinking of the 8-10lb weight?

I'm not bothered about unlimited vertical performance etc, just don't want it to be underpowered. 

Edited By Pete Carpenter on 01/11/2016 09:28:21

[Nigel R]

Percy (and others)

"A whole string of F4C Scale World Championship winners - including non British - have used Laser engines in their models in the last 20 odd years. Will that do?"

For sure - the scale contest market has Lasers throughout. Laser's reliability has them sold to this corner of the modelling world.

I mention the aerobat display flyers or IMAC because that's, as Jon put it

"because our historical 'marketing' has left so many people with the wrong idea about our engines."

wheras if you want to...

"I've had my Lasers in H9 Twist 40's, F3A Pattern Ships, Giles 120's, an Extra 260 and every Chris Foss plane you can name. On a couple of models I've had to put the battery behind the wing to balance, but that's it. A Laser will last a lifetime, I'm running a 1991 Laser150 in my H9 Funtana, still runs as good as new."

or to put it another way, they're great engines full stop. But how do you get that idea across to :

"The market i am targeting is you guys, club modellers who fly an assortment of sport and scale models of various sizes."

I'm suggesting that if you can get a few guys who don't fly pure scale jobs, guys who will be showing off other aspects of flying, get them to run Lasers and you'll see more club flyers following.

 

Edited By SuperNash on 01/11/2016 09:22:29

[Piers Bowlan]

Posted by Pete Carpenter on 01/11/2016 09:11:12:

It seems I'm being gently guided in the Laser direction and I have no problem with that at all, it's only the lower price tag of an ASP120 that gets my neck turning the other way! I know, I know - you get what you pay for...

Jon, you say your 100 would power the Eagle no problem, but does this take into account the increased draginess of such a plane, rather than just thinking of the 8-10lb weight?

For your information Pete, Just engines are selling the ASP120 for £251 while the Laser 100 is £255 on their website. If it were me I would be tempted to try a Laser as I have never owned one before! The Laser 100 is a long stroke engine (more torque) so will turn a bigger prop (16x6) rather than the ASP 120 (15x8). More torque is what works best with a draggy airframe. Just my 2p worth as I am really an 'electric man' myself so probably don't know what I am talking about.

[Jon H]

Supernash, the models flown professionally or for display are generally not the types of models flown at clubs and as i said before our engines would be too small. And if the advertising power of professional/display flying was that good we would all be flying 100'' plus models and we dont for numerous reasons.

I split the current i/c market into several rough categories:

1 - club level 50-120 4 stroke and 55-70 inch span trainer/sport/scale
2 - large club level 120 glow - 35cc with 70-80 inch span, 6th scale warbirds, 1/4 scale tigermoth, 75 inch extra/yak etc
3 - Top end club level/show flying models 30-50cc and usually 5th scale warbirds 80-90 inch, 50cc aerobatic etc
4 - LMA typ stuff of 100 inch+. Usually large petrol powered up to 150cc. TJD team fly warbirds in this category at shows, much of the 3d/aerobatic stuff at shows is this scale.
5 - Monster one of a kind stuff. 3rd scale WWII, 400cc moki radials, Steve Carr's aerobatic jobs etc.

The above list is not 100% as an 80 inch piper cub is not a level 2 model but more level 1. Some of the engine sizes overlap as well with some 80'' level 2 warbirds using 40 or 50cc. But as an overview that is how i see it.

Laser only have products that support categories 1-3 and so show flying, at big shows anyway, is not something we can cover. How many acrowots do you see flown in public displays? As such dishing out a bunch of free engines wont help us as they would both be unsuitable and even if fitted to a club model would never be seen in public. I would like to make engines for category 4 models but how many of you would buy a £1200 120cc v twin?

Remember also that every engine i give away for 'advertising' put the price of the engine you buy up as we simply cannot afford to hand out free engines. I also believe that it could even work against us if large and expensive models are flown with our engines. It would continue the idea that our engines are expensive, professional grade engines that are out of reach of the man at the patch with his £200 artf sport model. While i would like to think of our motors as 'professional grade' they are far from out of reach price wise and while we obviously cant match the Chinese motors for price, they are not the same product. I consider enya to be our most direct competitor in terms of quality and the type of product they have. Saito have gone down the super light weight/high power to weight ratio route which we have not. OS are the middle ground.

So, to answer your original question of how to show off our engines in sport applications to club level guys the simple answer is i dont know, but forums like this are rapidly becoming a mainstay when looking for information about products. So if Pete has his arm twisted into taking a Laser, and then reports back that his eagle is super with it fitted then other guys reading that will then start to see the engine in that light.

Now, Pete. I think the 100 will be ok but a great deal depends on your performance expectation. The drag of the eagle should not be too excessive as the wings are very short, and i saw a video of one performing well on an OS 110 which is similar in performance to our 100 (faster 15% nitro but no better on 5%). If you want unlimited performance you could use a 155, but that will damn near tear the model apart in my opinion as the 155 has no trouble with 15lb warbirds and gives the wots wot xl all the power it needs with some to spare. I think the 155 would be excessive.

[Jon H]

Posted by Piers Bowlan on 01/11/2016 11:00:25:

Posted by Pete Carpenter on 01/11/2016 09:11:12:

It seems I'm being gently guided in the Laser direction and I have no problem with that at all, it's only the lower price tag of an ASP120 that gets my neck turning the other way! I know, I know - you get what you pay for...

Jon, you say your 100 would power the Eagle no problem, but does this take into account the increased draginess of such a plane, rather than just thinking of the 8-10lb weight?

For your information Pete, Just engines are selling the ASP120 for £251 while the Laser 100 is £255 on their website. If it were me I would be tempted to try a Laser as I have never owned one before! The Laser 100 is a long stroke engine (more torque) so will turn a bigger prop (16x6) rather than the ASP 120 (15x8). More torque is what works best with a draggy airframe. Just my 2p worth as I am really an 'electric man' myself so probably don't know what I am talking about.

good grief....

I take it back, we can compete with the chinese on price!

And while long stroke the 100 can run anything from 14x7 to 15x8. 16x6 will work fine but it might be a bit slow on the straight line speed. It would be great in a tiger moth but might be a little slow in the eagle. If you wanted more thrust 15x6 might be good as the extra rpm would give you more hp. I use a 15x8 on the escapade.

One other thing i forgot Pete is that i can pull the escapade vertical from takeoff and it will just go straight up. Not ballistic fast, but it just keeps going!

[Hangar 9 nut]

I have a Laser 70 in a Majestic major and a Laser80 in a Hangar 9 Katana 50 they are both well suited to both planes which shows how versatile the Laser engines are !

[Scott Edwards 2]

Another feature of Lasers that they don't market is crash resistance. A half decent crash with an OS or Saito will wipe out the exhaust manifold, push rods, tubes and rocker covers, and is a costly repair job (I know!) I've had to dig my laser 100 out of a field with a spade. Spent the evening picking dirt out from the fins and cleaning it, but it ran again perfectly. You've got to try very very hard to break a Laser

[Tim Flyer]

I started using lasers at my club last year after being intrigued after seeing write ups on the Web. When I first asked club members about them a few years ago they just said they were great but "expensive ". In fact they are actually cheaper than OS! I bought an 80 for my 67 in Spitfire last year and was so impressed, had a 155 for my Wots Wot XL this year . I also have OS FS 81alpha and an OSFS95v which are also good engines, but for me the laser has the edge with it's even better throttling nicer sound and superior design. It's good they have the rods at the back of the engine too. There are many other small design tweaks that push it above the competition.

The general handling starting throttling of Lasers is the best. Their reliability is excellent. In my opinion they are a top club flier sport engine. In fact I just ordered another 80 yesterday. I decided I prefer that in my Wot 4 build i' m starting. It was going to be a "hot " 2s set up but the 80 will give me all the power I want.. Some of my club mates are abandoning their small petrol engines now and also buying lasers.

[Pete Carpenter]

Thanks guys for the further input - Jon it looks like I'll more than likely be heading your way when the time is right, especially now Piers pointed out the lack of significant price difference between the 100 and the ASP.
I only looked at the price on the main ASP page of the JE website, and it showed 181.97 inc.VAT - but click the Add To Cart button and it magically transforms to the 251! I guess the VAT info is wrong.

Anyway, I do certainly agree that these kinds of forum posts are invaluable for this kind of thing. To be honest I was expecting perhaps half a dozen quick replies with half a dozen different suggestions, but the info that's appeared has been brilliant.

Cheers everyone!

[Alan Gorham_]

Pete

Just Engines seem to have very recently increased the prices of the ASP engine range, probably as a result of the £/$ exchange rate fluctuations we have seen.

It may well be that all other makes of imported engines will soon increase in price due to this.

Food for thought when considering an engine made in the UK?

[Jon H]

Sounds good Pete

And its great hearing that its not just me using our engines in any old model. i wonder if it would be worth me starting a thread just showing off peoples models powered by Laser engines. I know scale will dominate it, but it seems sport will get a good showing.

One thing about installing the 100 in the eagle is make sure you mount it sideways as this will put the fuel tank in the right place vs the carb. its also ideal for cooling.

[Scott Edwards 2]

I think you would be surprised just how many Lasers there are out there in Sport models actually Jon ! I've got an old Laser 45 (goes like stink) that I'm putting in a Cambria Funfighter Zero, is that sport or scale ?

[Jon H]

Not the normal application but if it can be made to fit then go for it!

[Martin McIntosh]

Well, now you know what you need after all this discussion. I have an 80, 155 and a 180, all faultless. Guess what my next motor will be?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Denis Watkins]

Really, it is logical that "early" advertising of Laser Engines should fall towards precious scale models. With the dedication, and the time and investment in such models, the Lasers reliability and construction was recommended

[Jon H]

Very true Denis but there is a problem with this.

If a true modeller of old saw a 1/4 scale tiger moth or similar being flown at a show with one of our engines they would appreciate and understand the skills involved in building and flying that sort of model, they may even have fond memories of flying in them/seeing them around, and would also appreciate the torque/sound/reliability of the Laser 180 in the front and in general would be very impressed even if it was not their cup of tea in terms of the type of model they might build themselves as they had an appreciation of the hobby as a whole. This was proven to me at wings and wheels this year when Steve Carr flew a WWI biplane with us in our tiger moth slot and got caught out by the cross wind ending up with the model on its back. He commented on how the biplanes were so much more difficult in the conditions than his big aerobat and was complimentary of those who were still on their wheels.

However, these days it seems that with ARTF models in abundance, and a significant number of new 'modellers' are looking only at aerobatic or sport and do not see the tiger moth in the same way. When they see a tiger moth all they see is a slow, boring aeroplane being flown by an old man (sorry Neil). The whole thing is really dreary, the engine hardly sounds like its even turning over and so im not interested as its boring. Our friend here will now only connect Laser engines with boring old planes flown by old blokes on sunday afternoons. Which is not helpful for us.

Then some young'un takes up a funtana or something with a zippy 2 stroke petrol thing and gives it the full 3d thrashing. db sound is so excited he almost falls out of his booth and our spectator chap is now foaming at the mouth. He hears its a DLE something or other and then shoots off to get one, irrespective of what model he is intending to power.

The other thing that seems to be a trend is how people buy engines in terms of what they look for. The general list of priorities for me is this:

1 - Reliability
2 - Performance (overall performance so thats power, handling, starting etc)
3 - Cost (running costs included)

When in my teens cost was higher up the list, but now it is less of a priority but is still there.

However, our aerobatic friend has a priority list like this:

1 - Power
2 - Power
3 - How powerful is it?
4 - Power
5 - Is it more powerful than a ....
6 - Is it cheap?
7 - can you tell me how powerful it is?

While i might be over simplifying, i would say that more and more of the enquires i get are from 'Mr Aerobatic' with long drawn out questions about how powerful it is, whats the HP, will it turn a certain prop etc. Very often the engines are compared to a cheap 2 stroke petrol with comments of 'i can get more power than that from a 150 quid dle' which clearly shows a lack of knowledge about the differences between the products, and, to my horror, the level of understanding of model operation, especially engine operation, is falling through the floor which is why i am quite vocal on the forum about engine related matters. Im not trying to put people down, just make sure that the right advice is given and we dont rely on decades old folk lore that was never right in the first place!