Mick Reeves Gangster 63 Lite

[Peter Jenkins]

Also, different propellor makes have different performances despite the same diameter and pitch!  APC are the best unless you go carbon fibre.

[Graham Bowers]

Thread resurresction 😉

 

Maidened today, ex @Mark Jones 10 Gangster that appears further up in this thread, bought by me unflown a while ago.

 

It flies beautifully, although two flights today was enough as I find maidens quite stressful. I need not have worried though as a few beeps of down and a couple of aileron resulted  S&L hands off at mid stick cruise speed.

 

This thread was a great help in getting it ready - I went straight in with the CG at about 100mm as I like just a little positive stability. I may experiment with it a little further back as it's carrying a bit of down elevator trim at the moment S+L upright and with the stick centred, and needs a bit of down stick for S+L inverted. Hope that makes sense.

 

Let the detailed trimming begin...................tomorrow 😉

 

I'm really pleased it flies so well.

[Peter Jenkins]

Well done Graham, that should be an excellent start into precision aerobatics!

[Jonathan M]

Good to hear that Graham, and glad the thread has been useful!

[Nigel Heather]

Just got one of these - paid extra for the accessories but thinking that was a waste as the quality doesn’t appear to be that good.  Didn’t get a spinner, not sure whether it was missing or not provided any more, but would have probably fitted a different one any way.  The wheels are very budget and I’ll probably end up replacing them for bigger diameter any way.  The hinges are those cheap bendy plastic types so probably won’t use those either.  So the accessory pack was probably a waste.

 

I’m going to build as electric power, want to keep weight down so considering using lighter servos - any thoughts on that - I intend to put a servo in each wing.

 

Also, disappointed to find that there is no plane - I guess the photo manual and this thread will get me through it - fortunately I’m not new to building.  But do agree that I don’t think all is covered by the manual - for example, the kit contains a CNC cut sheet for an electric motor mount but no mention of this in the instructions.

 

Any guidance on thrust angles- are they not needed, built into the design, or do I need to add them myself - if the latter, any advice on what they should be.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Learner]

12 minutes ago, Nigel Heather said:

 

 

Also, disappointed to find that there is no plane 

Just lots of wood 😅

[Kim Taylor]

1 hour ago, Nigel Heather said:

Just got one of these -

I’m going to build as electric power, want to keep weight down so considering using lighter servos - any thoughts on that - I intend to put a servo in each wing.

 

Also, disappointed to find that there is no plane - I guess the photo manual and this thread will get me through it - fortunately I’m not new to building.  But do agree that I don’t think all is covered by the manual - for example, the kit contains a CNC cut sheet for an electric motor mount but no mention of this in the instructions.

 

Any guidance on thrust angles- are they not needed, built into the design, or do I need to add them myself - if the latter, any advice on what they should be.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about weight, unless you're trying to use a 'lightweight' power train. The wing area is enough to not have to actively lose weight.

The manual does leave quite a bit to the imagination, can't comment on the motor mount as this must be a fairly recent addition, mine (built 4 or 5 years ago) didn't have it.

Also the kit was the kit then - no options for with or without accessories. Did have a spinner included though, along with the now 'extra' bits & bobs.

I just mounted the motor on standoffs directly to the bulkhead, and assumed that any side / down thrust was built in to the design. Obviously it's easy enough to adjust with the mounting method I used, but I don't recall ever having to do anything in that regard.

Kim

[Peter Jenkins]

Nigel, this is the type of aircraft that you will notice the accuracy of good quality servos.  Do not opt for cheap and cheerful otherwise they will not allow you to trim the aircraft accurately.  A servo that accurately centres from both extremes and very small movements is essential.

[Nigel Heather]

1 hour ago, Peter Jenkins said:

Nigel, this is the type of aircraft that you will notice the accuracy of good quality servos.  Do not opt for cheap and cheerful otherwise they will not allow you to trim the aircraft accurately.  A servo that accurately centres from both extremes and very small movements is essential.

How do I know what a good servo is, which one centres well and support very small movements - can you simply assume that a servo with a lesser known brand is poor and one with a Futaba label is fantastic.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Nigel Heather

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi Nigel

 

There used to be a time when if you were flying aerobatics then you only used Futaba or JR servos.  Those days have gone.  However, for low cost servos that centre accurately and have good quality slop free gear trains then you really would do best to speak to Steve Webb Models - this is a link to their servo page.  I once bought some expensive Hitec servos but they did not centre accurately as was pointed out by a then UK team member who test flew my aircraft.  If you recovered from the vertical dive to horizontal and then released the stick, the aircraft climbed slightly and vice versa.  The immortal words were uttered "lose them and fit Futaba"! 

 

These days, I use Align, MKS and Futaba with good results.  Another factor to consider is that some servos, admittedly expensive ones, are programmable so that you can adjust dead band, centreing accuracy and so forth but you need to buy a programmer (link ).  I think your best bet is to speak to a supplier who sells a wide range of servos and explain what you want and see what they say.  If you are looking to pay less than £10 per servo then test them for centreing accuracy.  Use a long light pointer firmly bolted/attached to the servo arm and check that the tip of the pointer returns to the same place when you drive the servo in both directions.

 

At the end of the day, next to the aircraft you are using, the servo used has the greatest impact on how your aeroplane feels when you fly it.  For an aircraft like the Gangster 63 which has a great aerobatic capability, pick the best servo you can afford.  

[Nigel Heather]

Anyone done an electric power setup.  Looking on the 4-Max website they recommend the following

 

Motor - 3547-800

ESC - 50A

Prop - 12x7

Battery - 4S 3300

 

Does that sound about right to you?

 

 

[Peter Jenkins]

According to the 4Max website the motor has a maximum current draw of 36 A which using 3.8 x 4 x 36 gives 547.8 Watts.

 

I belive the Gangster 63 lite has a target AUW of 4 lb. This motor on 4S would give 136 watts/lb.  For an aerobatic aircraft this means it will not be able to maintain a constant speed when going vertical.  That means relatively small loops and stall turns will become rushed with a limited vertical climb.

 

200 watts/lb is a better target figure which for a 4 lb model means 800 watts.

 

I've used Overlander Thumpers in my F3A 70 size model.  Looking at the listing on the attached link the T 5045/10 V3 is rated at 860 watts but needs an 80 amp ESC and on 3S a 14x8 prop.  If that exceeds the available clearance you could use a 13x9 or 12x10.  Up to you but a good power to weight ratio is essential for good unhurried aerobatics.  You use half power for S&L flying and feed in the extra to maintain speed in the vertical.

[Nigel Heather]

Must admit that although I am doing my best to embrace electric power I struggle to understand the motor specifications, and I've got a degree in electronics!

 

As an example, take the 4-Max 3547-800 - it is in the 600W - 1200W section of their website, so I'd naturally think that it is at least 600W.

 

It states that it can use 3S or 4S batteries - so 11.1V or 14.8V.

 

But then it states that the max current is 36A, but it can only handle that for 10 sec, the continuous current is 29A.

 

So using the largest voltage, 14.8V the max power is

 

Max = 14.8 x 36 = 533W

Continuous = 14.8 x 29 = 429W

 

So how on earth is this in the 600W to 1200W section?

 

In the past I have asked 4-Max about this but didn't get a convincing explanation.

 

Now it gets even more confusing when I look at the equivalent Thumper, 3548-900

 

Now Overlander say that this is a 710W motor.

 

They also rate it for 3S and 4S, but they quote a maximum current of 60A (and don't state any time restriction).

 

So the thumper works out at 14.8 x 60 = 888 which is higher than the quoted 710W, so maybe they mean with 3S, so 11.1 x 60 = 666W

 

That is not 710W either but that does sit between 666W and 888W.

 

Obviously these are two different motors but I struggle to imagine that they are that different - but the specs say that they are very different (max amps, 36 versus 60)

Edited October 3, 2023 by Nigel Heather

[Kim Taylor]

Look at the relative weight of each of the motors - if the motor is heavier, then it's likely that it can take the extra current.

There is a school of thought that rates motor power by weight. Personally, I'd rather rely on the published performance data, but hey - maybe I'm wrong.🤔

Wrt the 4-Max motors, there seems to be a rather large 'hole' in their range, insofar as there are no 40mm dia motors, which normally fill the gap between about 500 - 800 watts.

In my 'lite' I've got an oversize motor, propped down to about 750W (bear in mind I estimate it weighs nearer 5lb than 4). I used this because I had it in my spares drawer and I'm too cheap to buy new bits when I can re-purpose old ones.😀 In your position, I'd be looking at a 4050 case size motor of 700 - 800kV if running 4s. Prop it to 700 - 750W with something like a 12x8e (guessing - someone with ecalc may feel like chipping in).

The 4lb published weight is - how should I put this - ambitious!! There's plenty of evidence in this thread to suggest that 5lb is a much more likely outcome, once you've got a sensible powertrain installed. Just my opinion, ymmv.

Kim

eta Meant to say, prop clearance on anything larger than 12" is going to be marginal on anything other than short, smooth grass or a hard runway. I have used a 13" previously, but it's not ideal!!

Edited October 3, 2023 by Kim Taylor

[Nigel Heather]

56 minutes ago, Kim Taylor said:

Look at the relative weight of each of the motors - if the motor is heavier, then it's likely that it can take the extra current.

There is a school of thought that rates motor power by weight. Personally, I'd rather rely on the published performance data, but hey - maybe I'm wrong.🤔

Wrt the 4-Max motors, there seems to be a rather large 'hole' in their range, insofar as there are no 40mm dia motors, which normally fill the gap between about 500 - 800 watts.

In my 'lite' I've got an oversize motor, propped down to about 750W (bear in mind I estimate it weighs nearer 5lb than 4). I used this because I had it in my spares drawer and I'm too cheap to buy new bits when I can re-purpose old ones.😀 In your position, I'd be looking at a 4050 case size motor of 700 - 800kV if running 4s. Prop it to 700 - 750W with something like a 12x8e (guessing - someone with ecalc may feel like chipping in).

The 4lb published weight is - how should I put this - ambitious!! There's plenty of evidence in this thread to suggest that 5lb is a much more likely outcome, once you've got a sensible powertrain installed. Just my opinion, ymmv.

Kim

eta Meant to say, prop clearance on anything larger than 12" is going to be marginal on anything other than short, smooth grass or a hard runway. I have used a 13" previously, but it's not ideal!!

 

Thanks, that is great information and advice, I shall follow your example.

 

Still puzzled by motor specs though - the 4-Max and Thumper motors are identical in weight - well one is 154g and the other is 157g.

[Kim Taylor]

2 minutes ago, Nigel Heather said:

 

Thanks, that is great information and advice, I shall follow your example.

 

Still puzzled by motor specs though - the 4-Max and Thumper motors are identical in weight - well one is 154g and the other is 157g.

Doesn't make sense, simple as that.

I've never used 4-Max, so won't comment further but I've got a couple of Overlander Thumper motors, and they seem to do what it says on the label.

Kim

[leccyflyer]

I've never understood why folks make the calculation for watts using the nominal voltage printed on the battery pack, namely 11.1v for a 3s1p pack. 🤔 So, in the case of a 3s1p pack and the motor & prop pulling 60amps that is 666W, as stated.

 

Personally I tend to fly my models with fully charged packs and I aim to have landed by the time the pack gets down to 3.7v/cell - or that 11.1v for a 3s1p pack. That's equating to something like 3.4v/cell under heavy load. When I'm taking off and flying round the pack is at 12.6 to start off, namely 4.2v/cell and if it's a half way decent pack should be 12v under load. The calculation in the above example would be better represented as 60ampsx12v =720 watts, or pretty much what the specification stated.

[Peter Jenkins]

OK, realistic AUW seems to be just over 5 lb so aim for 1,000 watts output.  This is now becoming 5S territory!  I mention that as my Fantasista 70 comes in at 2.5 Kg or 5 1/2 lb.  I use an Overlander Thumper 5055/06 580 kv in the Fantasista and get 1,200 watts out of it using a 5S and 16x10 prop.  If you use a 4S and prop down to pull 1,000 watts you are looking at around 68 A.  

 

However, the 5055 is quite a bit heavier at 279 g and £14 more.  That having been said, it's a brilliant motor and performs beautifully.  The Fantasista will fly the FAI P schedule with this motor and the vertical performance is unlimited.

[Kim Taylor]

Can I just stick my head above the parapet here and say that, in my opinion, this model doesn't need 1kW to fly it in the manner that (I think) Nigel is intending to use it.

My one, although it has a motor capable of producing circa 1.3kW, is propped down to (iirc) 750W and it does everything that I (a sport flyer) need it to do. It will fly a conventional (not 3D) aerobatic schedule and is unlimited vertical. My motor is 470kV and the battery is 6s 3000, but that's only because I had them 'in stock'.

It would fly perfectly happily, and with the same energy capacity on a 700 - 800kV motor and 4s 4500 LiPo, and would do everything that a 'sport' flyer needs and more.

If Nigel wants it to do 3D aeros or fly an F?? schedule, then all of the above is probably nonsense, but you wouldn't be building a Gangster to do that, imho.

As an aside, you'd have difficulty fitting a large enough prop to absorb 1kW. 12" is the practical maximum (without modification) 13" can work on a billiard table smooth strip.

Like I said, just my opinion👍

Kim

[Nigel Heather]

51 minutes ago, Kim Taylor said:

Can I just stick my head above the parapet here and say that, in my opinion, this model doesn't need 1kW to fly it in the manner that (I think) Nigel is intending to use it.

My one, although it has a motor capable of producing circa 1.3kW, is propped down to (iirc) 750W and it does everything that I (a sport flyer) need it to do. It will fly a conventional (not 3D) aerobatic schedule and is unlimited vertical. My motor is 470kV and the battery is 6s 3000, but that's only because I had them 'in stock'.

It would fly perfectly happily, and with the same energy capacity on a 700 - 800kV motor and 4s 4500 LiPo, and would do everything that a 'sport' flyer needs and more.

If Nigel wants it to do 3D aeros or fly an F?? schedule, then all of the above is probably nonsense, but you wouldn't be building a Gangster to do that, imho.

As an aside, you'd have difficulty fitting a large enough prop to absorb 1kW. 12" is the practical maximum (without modification) 13" can work on a billiard table smooth strip.

Like I said, just my opinion👍

Kim

 

Absolutely, more often than not, and a lot of it is my own fault, I end up in conversations like this that have the opposite effect to that intended, it leaves me in despair with thoughts of giving up the hobby altogether.

 

Basically, I’m not a very accomplished flier.  I’ve been at it for years but with work and other commitments I have been on and off, plus I have a whole host of other hobbies, RC flying is not my ‘only love’ I’m not one of those that is down the field every day.

 

So although I have be ‘at it’ for years, I class myself as a confident beginner, could pass the A Certificate, happy flying solo, don’t crash that much.

 

What I was looking for in the Gangster is a sports plane that I can start to improve my aerobatics, make them more clean and tidy.  I have no intention or desire to enter the world of competition flying, and if I were I don’t think the Gangster would be a great choice.  Just general sports flying but cleaner, tidier, more precise.

 

I went for the Gangster because I’ve seen them fly and quite like them, I wanted a bigger traditional build, heard good things about them, and it was cheap.

 

Although cheap, I was aware that there were other costs to finish and it would be more expensive than an ARTF, but my hope is that I would end up with something that is better and have ‘fun’ getting there.  My worry is the way these conversations often trend is that I’m in danger of buying a Lada and fitting a Ferrari engine.

 

So absolutely, I’m happy to spend a little more to get a better model, but I don’t want it getting out of hand.

 

For example, I started out thinking I would use £10 servos, I don’t mind suggestions that I should use £15 ones instead but I don’t want to fit £30 ones.

 

Or the motor/ESC, I was looking at an affordable pairing that was going to cost £80 and make use of batteries that I already have, but feel that it is getting out of hand with £150 gear and having to buy a whole new set of 5S batteries.

 

I just want a sports plane that I can fly nicely and I can improve my rudimental skills.  In the unlikely event that I fall in love and want to go into competition, then I would invest in a more appropriate model.

 

BTW - I’m not having a go at anyone, I really appreciate all the input and I recognise that I’m often guilty of fuelling these conversations myself because I often find myself saying “but this better widget is only an extra £s” so I do have a tendency to over-engineer.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Nigel Heather

[Ron Gray]

7 minutes ago, Nigel Heather said:

make use of batteries that I already have

So what have you got in your collection?

[GrumpyGnome]

Nicely said Nigel!

 

What do you fly at the moment ? (You may well have said in this or another thread...)

[leccyflyer]

At 5lb + AUW, plus with prop size limited to 12" maximum, then you are getting into the realm of needing to go higher voltage than 4s1p in order to keep the current draw within reasonable limits. It is, after a a 63" span model and if the aim is to improve your aerobatics you'll probably want something better than 120w/lb, more like 150w/lb, which puts you in the 750w area, as suggested earlier.

 

[GrumpyGnome]

This may he a dumb statement, but why is Nigel limited to 12" props? It's not built yet so maybe the undercarriage can be a little longer, and the wheels a little larger...........

[Nigel Heather]

20 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

So what have you got in your collection?

I have the ubiquitous 3S 2200, two types of 4S(a more compact 2600 and a bigger 3500) and also some 6S 2250 (for a helicopter but probably will need replacing soon, if I decide to stick with the helicopter).

 

I bought the Gangster because I saw it in the 4-Max recommended setups and it all seemed rather reasonable.

 

Now with all this talk of bigger motors, ESCs and 5S batteries I’m considering whether I should just shelve the kit or sell it on.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel