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Electric Cars.


Cuban8
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9 hours ago, MattyB said:

the planet

 

Different argument right there.

 

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 If the converted e-caddy – its 25.9 kWh battery was produced using wind power – is charged only with green electricity during its service life, the electric car is “cleaner” than its fossil fuel-powered counterpart after just 17,000 kilometres

 

sounds lovely.

 

But the same converted caddy...

 

Quote

 vehicle with a 51.8 kWh battery, which is produced using coal-fired electricity and charged using the “dirty” electricity mix, only reaches break-even after 310,000 kilometres.

 

https://www.electrive.com/2020/04/07/lifecycle-assessment-electric-cars-vs-combustion-engines/

 

I know, it's just an internet page. I know, that's now, and not 10 yrs time. But the point remains, there is a 'break-even' point, and if the electricity used to charge the thing and/or make the lipo comes from coal - as a lot does worldwide - then right now that seems a step backward for most owners, whose car will never see that higher mileage.

 

I'm not for or against a change in propulsion, a second hand leaf is definitely on the list to replace the ageing (2003) Honda I'm driving until it falls apart. Just engaging in the debate. 

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I think that we can see where this is all going and where we'll be in ten years time. Cheap used cars whether EV or IC will be next to impossible to buy for those on lower incomes - something like the historic rise in house prices causing so much difficulty and often true hardship now. The insanity of following a policy of banning new IC vehicles from 2030 (hybrids from 2035 AFAIA) will only compound the issue. It's such a bad idea IMHO, that I can't believe it'll come about. Few are talking about it at the moment, but it'll become a huge political football nearer to the time.

 

My own and much loved 2008 Mondeo estate - 160000 miles and owned from new - was worth little more that scrap value a couple of years back, but as it's in exceptionally  good condition with FSH and with a shed load of life left in it, you'd need to find £2K - £4K on the used market for something similar, but I suspect not as good.

Smaller vehicles like the petrol Ford Focus that might be better suited to many people's needs are appreciating in value even more so.  The wife's 2015 Fiesta that we had when it was 18 months old ........I reckon I could get most of what we paid for it back in the right part exchange deal.

 

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If cheap used cars are hard to buy for those on lower incomes, the modern flexible workforce is up the creek and so is the employer. These people will not be using public transport to get to work, in it's current state it couldn't cope. Conversation hasn't even begun re phasing out I.C yet, up to now it's window dressing and pretty pictures, the harsh realities have more to them than battery life and charging points.

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Oooh goodness people do have the "debby downers" in this thread today! Come on chaps cheer up.

 

One of the great things about going to the Fully Charged Show was seeing a lot of people really working on the problems we face and coming up with some great products. I mean who would have thought you could get a DeLorean to perform?

VPdxJfvmru8NNGOg6N_H1mAelXEtZ9ZQbECxmZJHGbD-nP2LR4wNjCJhzzlmvnuD6Cdx1w6O2HvMGrwoAjZnA3YCFpG2br2WDRPOkGwq1HEr04O-xvSaAt1DuiVoqaoUrpn4kRZWURfdVE8XChQhRhkc7UkNQX2nQk3QL_bEAlrxf2TkJtYzm1P4Ste-9s9IwvKCbQLrMWx8_Fd9saw_ylpCaDp_oeAeOQRcVepq3X-y4Ah1ZFEIxRHTG9US3QmfOsDk1jMJdp4NGJxvFnWQLzJdaJqbC2aKNuJS4Aqy0rhWzVnr6sKxNzpVgRwBkHjH-014KzhguH_U0wdfS-3OMd0Y5qghghAdZ94uDdIXmtlAHq6LK-5s01HdBY_XXkoPOEyjhKBoDXmqL2Q7JsScRSddlD8A68yPDH9on8597X3QfBpU-qP9TXdQBePNfO4JViFO0OTwz6TzNGEk-GLqwXpWrUTp7DPC2_Pk7I5b_s28oFys7VGHGneoeDSfm2iZlEU1GudiptzhdfZ9CKGAQNReGbpgkID8U-4nD92A2PB0YwPn2wNjULR95ejZmABsvoQTb8M83Hm6gvsYkiLuZJC5U-RTPnZH6LtAcHYMVmySB2XdkOnE0ZAm2U7OfJz6fBx4OGtdKS-3tGpaNT0tKrzs3pbfMggJqIyXPFv0DEvpHzf0Tz_4FB4FXENyMfTqTZjzBhbFpUKMqscGSx6BSPpN1FAAoCXkb8T0GVQW5itmlZvRqR9yf9n9JSwxmg=w1170-h878-no?authuser=0

 

Or that the motorcycles in TRON would become reality?

 

hLrrVObBp9lrilZn4-tfeSBaldASIo39ec19vqfUeI7CcwEVISChZ-eUwR6WDbAfpnNd9MZG7mAzlY-l6eZwwtUUQl4BVLDHvgNWN_sHAI1MuV_sSKT1ePEzvB7-u1hrEeAf_k9-q-dOIMeoAujUVvDztxG18CcHefNZFt3ldanmOHQwe2PdfBaGQ7rTKb9v5w73MccSAl7NGnKTZbMo1GATzeD1Niu_UeCZnMRcnDShx--dwu7yX3PGYGeWgk1bDOFS6-1qhfBpzS1LA1xE3fCSZJim_RPmi5hT76rLJQB_x1x2MrLwboh2_lXmJH9rGh_1SC1o0oPcbqmZSyodrz_I35aXo97LW3LgKehRL4X7APWeMc42Qn8ZOEOtbw3ETOEJMx7BpshYooJbYbUwxTttX6jFZwLFmJ7UKTUcc0IinFr6UdYDQqI6yT1WRCCFKW99Bb-DwUCtVtylkaypCTlgiEHoqVPzTQiRJYkwTwXoijxk5UXnZmJQeU3nzKlt17oHp5kET8boG-sya45iuzx_0cWUQYkHvxjUoAtHw_J9Go98IGjS2W27uEtONdhnBwB-tOB093xaJfXj_YtaVEB5G9xWChGcw5ICLkWFxII9jmkivroDprD8p5KCR0YaCUx9uG98R4Y12o95STOxH0HW0x_ivia7ALnFfqI-r_GKwnkKq2KjnvlvudbQhsrrXgfr33MyJ3LPirXQlWZjMvARiSq-dDiMwTZoWxqbhmB_1ahd-wmFCywjUvjGmA=w1170-h878-no?authuser=0

 

Or that you could fly a drone without goggle thingies strapped to your face?

Iql0cURG6jKN8QcTEVvzICfpVFZsNJzNQVjrWtQMf3AmAxPnfiZEiwZUTrfDqBusqAS6XYMkMjsm7zssfNAxfsjPm0ff3kHVfiBnBF6b17OQVsQpf4qV6ewu5NOE6LTgBYmXbrqAtgrXHqDb4AXv-QyQgVJRYDlEa3CCYFvHocXZTNXTBYNGeJ7tSRliZyyvxR5WBRTmMqWzPzFab7fJhffDeeqBenJn61k1IqPNYnwi7_zzyJ9TWIve0JvIiQkNW-oNHcWzHCM7QLQquUF7yhJihO7NQU1q8ajtGPEUg1yHJxPe9zaXGg-T7oVHMB2QAhrOOpQwpXFkexrjNxBhEzIVBA1JODpK_ezpESVoVtIILHxtHGC6z2FEv0zu5_XES0Rv73OwA-n2kg2te0urP61MA9c17lLQUH-m4W1iqFvngPodoQ9Y6TjGqN8ac24ecG1LS-GqHmhOdB-f95yJqBtGcJ_zu87QULG1loYn24cE7fsm6s3Q9uY7ANSXDHhWDGyl7y3m1nnxqM21J0tn_LuB6mwXK6qSOwzizjft_2Lcdq3WBwTVWEbD3JlrPKB3xWXgmHtvecMw3gPHr8Kqe2Jqn2NfSDXCzYcmCOHRN66K07D1GOmDJMay6tgkWY8fXLWhwBTSz_3fL0JKUgey-tjbAfxFbOZlFNZC37HJrmNhoU2WJDZe3_KTK9iMPHB0H6ZWRMbiEvliBSdsDlshuLvVgv6Q9RHvSvs-3y2taQvIDi28dAbZqvsTAcxW-A=w1170-h878-no?authuser=0

 

That my next model carrier would be so hip and trendy that I'd have to wear a Hawaiian shirt to the field?

sWpgHCQbPJb1lOn8itLg1gWDtVwNp5aCFWTyS8qIQtprUdpoAButyRpdIz6kgCxAUYiHNqricLBy9605iCwHtokj1iJtR8AUceO6eSHV_EkPFEmD2RJUiG6-u2Xb4-6OBVfyhj_XleArG6DcdDL638PnWCZk-ioxY5Knv_svJQDrmxrK7NvVxDLkF0O592S5ga-BA_GfRs-uOfAYMAYtPmzXHMIR1icRInFNeAdBGFvDoVDl9eoSe6uG9cy5i-IAteYM2_3NxPgQjtREjf3GYvDxr4vStT0-ZptQse9sekqxYDfeucku_doqP8eo2Hu-26XJxStdon4vSfM-q49lF3InlA6t7eDk_-0x1vYqFVzEcI5YbzPY0NRvAc7MWZKFK-XFACwxMA6dv6SFDZhJDdImCBNDeNiZHrpRjTJtIT6xULJGXMsA0Fsyc2pvqyjACp4kGU28HIEzextMxeaXfCgSiCFOFHpfoSLZPdvS0C9jfj8wkeqa1bhklwOlMyqJ_-85MPCQsR4mN9d6BoRRcbbs3zdYFzY3Fu8OG6GvE0MlbZI6JSspKty2WcWVgQhvUDr6qJWd9_kGoXCtXKzujIEJ3g2vTXlNpIbU6zWoz69qNJ5xUBxP35MP1WxDSrI1-tMX4TIOUNBQG5kJbYXORPr89fyY8c1J9_mzsBUQBFnr7sM33p4aveTTxj_E8zG8_09zASL-Fsz817d3kHQwqDSGeITLHbNm5UqUev-z2fnQXum_JxRTSdx9J4J2rw=w1170-h878-no?authuser=0

 

Or that personal transport could be such fun?

vm5Ch6E_EgR1t4E4SYfgXj_A5lZgxHcGrXWvMaaazhzamLLK-vgiADnryqEXTEMoH00K2_CA550K8g9os7ZulNY_-vJHVxs4RDYtJ0LsG8idsT9bZKumGJvjj-AppnEFyNhLYx_9CKQWypbrZ2EycswjLIyLliS7QvP9KXEPzs6JhKY4qI-CGGbxV182tjGwdlMY20k9CT2ygsAvz1AXj8t2Yv8MhAb82k9CmbTIhEYow1SjhUaTVQ2UIkeKEE_21xhCnVVkRiKHTfEfG1zEM2S31uWQAy8ntmqsbirxm5fxbMwsDc9Y4ew704z5T0AlweZQEGjeKV8yGbGI6VgXHjwS8q1-TlSNKjoeATV0eKtVlokJyvlC2aonxHna_Z58i0aaG9C_EWrwGLjiqDbJMBf2Wh956bTbM2OWHpdoTRzloF2SizK8pMc996mg_TnQlmXELEKdSX9cIMQw600J3c3Z3Gm2HQSlgSdR2IjVz5Y4-7bP9Kai8z7-kNz9B_r-WWJkJw7RBmuKpPdpcSxYpCtHp3Sq17uFcNPxDRAwLIOak-k1qLzl6DeiOrCB50xlDWnxoOQwAFwEzWsJmWQk7yKSg20d5cJ1fzJGV8_QbjkHNrW0iUXznztyGZaON1kDbj0AwNlRKEE8AGo8-AyN_xkoV4loQEcuVJ80wISHrTnzCzty52ezNCWlVwB0afBhPNPSGHrJaEXvYjaEBzojyoUdNwTCsSTJYoQjWLe6Zp_fVvF9YB2BbMX0Cc7--A=w1170-h878-no?authuser=0

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IDD, Deborah downer speaking.

That is the marketing people speaking. Professional liars. The same crew that tell us the Royal Dutch Shell  has any intention to become carbon neutral, and then spend millions to get governments to water down laws to rein them in, while spending millions to persuade that individuals will do the job, out of charity.

I don’t see many realistic electric cars getting sold. Say 600 kilos empty, top speed 100 Kph , 0 to 100 Kph in 20 to 30 seconds.

Light, energy efficient, slow, safe. 

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Dear Debs 

Funny you should mention Shell 

https://www.zap-map.com/ubitricity-prepares-rapid-growth-charging/

 

As the owner of the largest number of charge points in the UK could this be a case of leopards and spots? Guess we won't know till 2025 to see if they make those numbers.

 

Chin up love. Just think you may never have to wear eau de derv ever again if you go electric! ?

 

Stay safe 

Idd

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

IDD15 your post comes out blank for me, but if you have £12.000 for a 100 kilometre range on a moto bike go ahead,,,?

 

https://www.cleanrider.com/catalogue/moto-electrique/zero-motorcycles/zero-motorcycles-zero-s/

Went off bikes when I witnessed a poor chap launched into a series of somersaults courtesy of a driver who turned across his path. Can still hear the sound of him hitting the road to this day. Horrible.

 

Given the number of bike garage queen's I see around here perhaps 100km range is sufficient for that particular market today?

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11 minutes ago, Cuban8 said:

An odds on winner methinks. 

I'd be careful taking that one. Norway bans ICE sales in 2025, but all the signs are sales of ICE will be near zero in 2023. Perhaps the same will happen here?

 

Idd

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15 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Realists, we haven't scratched the surface on this massive change yet, to me a car is just a tool to get from A to B couldn't care less how it's powered.

Good position, open mind and keeps your options open. But to say all we have seen is window dressing is I think perhaps a bit demeaning to all the people who are genuinely getting their hands dirty to make a massive change for the better.

 

But to each their own.

 

Idd

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16 minutes ago, IDD15 said:

I'd be careful taking that one. Norway bans ICE sales in 2025, but all the signs are sales of ICE will be near zero in 2023. Perhaps the same will happen here?

 

Idd

Have you looked at how Norway, already carbon neutral, gets its electricity. Hydroelectric, wind, sun. Infrastructure paid for by spending its oil incomes on infrastructure. Electric charges are very low. No wonder they like electric cars. Your solution, a nuclear fission plant every year, and dig up the Northwest for its fracking gas, and get Shell to drill a bit more in the North Sea?

And please, marketing people by definition are professional liars, and equating them with people getting their hand dirty is straight out of their disingenuous phrase handbook.

BTW, if I can avoid eau de glow, derv ain’t any more difficult than don’t suck hands after chopping chilies.

Haven’t got a stake in this argument, no children. No grandchildren. So no future generation of mine to curse our blinkered obsession with burning energy.

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21 minutes ago, Nigel R said:

 

10 years away, I heard...

 

21 minutes ago, Nigel R said:

 

10 years away, I heard...

That’s fusion, 10 years down the road for the last 40.

Fission we have had for years, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima et al, and still no waste storage solutions, except, the Japanese, fine engineers, propose to dump wast water into the sea. Cheap, quick, good. Two of three.

Mind the mustard marinade for dinner tonight seems to make a torus cool. I wait my mistress passing judgement. Or throwing it at me. 
But to reiterate, the Prime Minister has been saying, daily, that a nuclear fission power plant will be built every year, to get the UK carbon neutral.

Edited by Don Fry
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2 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

 

That’s fusion, 10 years down the road for the last 40.

Fission we have had for years, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima et al, and still no waste storage solutions, except, the Japanese, fine engineers, propose to dump wast water into the sea. Cheap, quick, good. Two of three.

Mind the mustard marinade for dinner tonight seems to make a torus cool. I wait my mistress passing judgement. Or throwing it at me. 

 

Hope the good lady isn't called Debbie. ?

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4 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

IDD15 your post comes out blank for me, but if you have £12.000 for a 100 kilometre range on a moto bike go ahead,,,?

 

https://www.cleanrider.com/catalogue/moto-electrique/zero-motorcycles/zero-motorcycles-zero-s/

 

I used to do a lot of motorcycling.  They were my only means of transport for years and I competed in trials both solo and sidecar. However, when we started sailing, we also started pedal cycling for fitness and we both cycle commuted - my wife about 12 miles/day and me 26, and sometimes 50 in summer on a nice day.  I've now converted our bikes to have electrical assistance and get a range of 100km by only using the battery when necessary and, even then, at the lowest level I can manage. 

 

We have a diesel Vauxhall Astra estate but do very few miles.  I think it will be our last car (we're both in our 80s) but I'd really like to go electric if we do change it. 

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2 hours ago, Geoff S said:

 

I used to do a lot of motorcycling.  They were my only means of transport for years and I competed in trials both solo and sidecar. However, when we started sailing, we also started pedal cycling for fitness and we both cycle commuted - my wife about 12 miles/day and me 26, and sometimes 50 in summer on a nice day.  I've now converted our bikes to have electrical assistance and get a range of 100km by only using the battery when necessary and, even then, at the lowest level I can manage. 

 

We have a diesel Vauxhall Astra estate but do very few miles.  I think it will be our last car (we're both in our 80s) but I'd really like to go electric if we do change it. 

That's interesting, one of the reasons we went to the FC show was to have a look at the new Swytch bike conversion kit as we have been thinking of converting our hybrids for a while. We were very impressed and got to try it on both a Brompton and a conventional step through. Another motivation to do this is that we will have a purpose made cycle track very soon that passes right by our club flying field, so I'm thinking Swytch kit and a cycle trailer! 

 

I think given you and your wife's  "travel history" you should try and get a test drive in the Carver. It is actually classed as a motorbike but you drive it like any other electric car. Both Mrs idd and my son tried it and came back from test drives with smiles a mile wide! ?

cheers

idd

 

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5 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Have you looked at how Norway, already carbon neutral, gets its electricity. Hydroelectric, wind, sun. Infrastructure paid for by spending its oil incomes on infrastructure. Electric charges are very low. No wonder they like electric cars. Your solution, a nuclear fission plant every year, and dig up the Northwest for its fracking gas, and get Shell to drill a bit more in the North Sea?

And please, marketing people by definition are professional liars, and equating them with people getting their hand dirty is straight out of their disingenuous phrase handbook.

BTW, if I can avoid eau de glow, derv ain’t any more difficult than don’t suck hands after chopping chilies.

Haven’t got a stake in this argument, no children. No grandchildren. So no future generation of mine to curse our blinkered obsession with burning energy.

Well yes I do know quite a bit about Norway and why a new grid interconnect has just come into operation between our electricity network and theirs.

 

Yes, Norway appears to have been a damn sight cleverer than us Brits in how it has benefitted from N Sea oil and gas.

 

Quite why you think I am an advocate for Shell, Nuclear and Fracking escapes me as I am not aware of having made any posts doing so, and in fact my position is quite the opposite. Also having worked for many years in sales and marketing I find it deeply insulting to be called a professional liar. But if it makes you happy, then so be it.

 

idd

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16 hours ago, IDD15 said:

Oooh goodness people do have the "debby downers" in this thread today! Come on chaps cheer up.

 

One of the great things about going to the Fully Charged Show was seeing a lot of people really working on the problems we face and coming up with some great products. I mean who would have thought you could get a DeLorean to perform?

VPdxJfvmru8NNGOg6N_H1mAelXEtZ9ZQbECxmZJHGbD-nP2LR4wNjCJhzzlmvnuD6Cdx1w6O2HvMGrwoAjZnA3YCFpG2br2WDRPOkGwq1HEr04O-xvSaAt1DuiVoqaoUrpn4kRZWURfdVE8XChQhRhkc7UkNQX2nQk3QL_bEAlrxf2TkJtYzm1P4Ste-9s9IwvKCbQLrMWx8_Fd9saw_ylpCaDp_oeAeOQRcVepq3X-y4Ah1ZFEIxRHTG9US3QmfOsDk1jMJdp4NGJxvFnWQLzJdaJqbC2aKNuJS4Aqy0rhWzVnr6sKxNzpVgRwBkHjH-014KzhguH_U0wdfS-3OMd0Y5qghghAdZ94uDdIXmtlAHq6LK-5s01HdBY_XXkoPOEyjhKBoDXmqL2Q7JsScRSddlD8A68yPDH9on8597X3QfBpU-qP9TXdQBePNfO4JViFO0OTwz6TzNGEk-GLqwXpWrUTp7DPC2_Pk7I5b_s28oFys7VGHGneoeDSfm2iZlEU1GudiptzhdfZ9CKGAQNReGbpgkID8U-4nD92A2PB0YwPn2wNjULR95ejZmABsvoQTb8M83Hm6gvsYkiLuZJC5U-RTPnZH6LtAcHYMVmySB2XdkOnE0ZAm2U7OfJz6fBx4OGtdKS-3tGpaNT0tKrzs3pbfMggJqIyXPFv0DEvpHzf0Tz_4FB4FXENyMfTqTZjzBhbFpUKMqscGSx6BSPpN1FAAoCXkb8T0GVQW5itmlZvRqR9yf9n9JSwxmg=w1170-h878-no?authuser=0

 

Or that the motorcycles in TRON would become reality?

 

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Or that you could fly a drone without goggle thingies strapped to your face?

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That my next model carrier would be so hip and trendy that I'd have to wear a Hawaiian shirt to the field?

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Or that personal transport could be such fun?

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Hi IDD

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GG

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