Electric Cars.

[Trevor Crook]

Percy, I agree with your estimate of timescale. I think it will all happen way before the 2040 time imposed by the government.

I quite fancy a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV myself. The electric range is officially 30 miles, probably nearer 20 in real life, which would get me to and from either of my flying sites. Plenty of room for models, too! The problem with hybrids is, as they have two means of power, there is an awful lot there to go wrong as the car gets older. Having said that, apparently there are many Prius taxis out there that have covered six-figure mileages without major failure.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Geoff S]

Mark Kettle: What a great film! Obviously my use of the A1 wasn't until around 1957 (I was born in 1940) but it really hadn't changed that much as there were few changes during and just after the war. A lot of the cars were still running when I used it. I liked that the guy filming didn't bother to pull his car ( a Studebaker?) off the road despite there being adequate space to do so.

I knew someone who happened to be visiting Stamford on the day they opened the by-pass and he said the sudden loss of traffic was remarkable. I bought my last racing dinghy, a Laser, in Stilton and I knew Stevenage quite well in the 50s and 60s (I worked at ICT for a while) but it had changed a lot by then because of London over-spill. I think recognised a stretch near to old Welwyn near Lemsford on the road to Stevenage.

Thanks for posting.

Geoff

[Mark Kettle 1]

[ChrisB]

Two points from me on this.

Firstly, us modellers shouldn't encourage in land/onshore wind turbines, as I know of several clubs who have suffered as a result and we shouldn't encourage solar farms for the same reason.

In terms of air pollution, according to a piece on Radio 4 a few weeks ago, around 50% of air pollution from vehicles comes from brakes and tyres. People seem to use their brakes far more these days.(those dotted lines at a junction have catch nets apparently) and people don't drive to save tyre wear. Electric vehicles won't solve this problem.

Just look at the dust on your wheels after a few weeks and although we can't see it, the debris from tyre wear...similar to that of the marbles on an F1 track at the end of the race.

Finally there is the total life cost of an electric vehicle, not really any more planet saving than any other vehicle with mineral extraction, shipping, energy generation and disposal.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Bigger things at stake than us model flyers Chris, I doubt the worlds gonna stop for us.

[ChrisB]

I don’t suppose it will John but still, I hate the thought of our farmer filling his fields with solar panels as that would stop us flying completely. At least crops can be overflown.

[Tom Thomas]

Posted by ChrisB on 21/01/2018 22:52:12:

I don’t suppose it will John but still, I hate the thought of our farmer filling his fields with solar panels as that would stop us flying completely. At least crops can be overflown.

Can't believe you are being serious with that statement.

Selfishness is ugly.

[Tom Thomas]

It's funny isn't it, how we pick and choose our reasons for the better.

Stop smoking..... etc.... cancer causing.... etc.... stopped from smoking in pubs..... etc... yet, drive a car, either petrol or diesel? .....well let's just ignore that hey

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Cuban8]

Some very interesting comments and opinions regarding electric vehicles per se, but we have drifted a tad away from my original point concerning the possible social impact and its repercussions of putting cheap transport out of the reach of many families, in a way that is not so much of a problem now.

It's all very virtuous to look forward to participating in the brave new world of clean, green etc personal transport, but as always, there could be unintended negative consequences, one of which I've mentioned in my OP.

Just to widen it a bit then............caravans/motor homes. Yes, people do take the micky, but that manufacturing industry is still vibrant in the UK and of course, goodness knows how much UK tourism might stand to lose should practical vehicles suitable for the continuation of those activities cease to be available over time. Even without a caravan, what impact would there be on general tourism in, for example, Cornwall?

Would you be willing to set off from the North to get to the West Country with a vehicle having a range of a couple of hundred miles at best and the prospect of worrying about being one of thousands of vehicles hunting for a charging point? Then of course, the return journey...........

[Jez Saunders]

The reality is that we need to do something, there are far too many of us and there are many more to come, we can beat nature for so long but you can bet it will come up behind us and kick us in the behind when we are least expecting it. And it probably will !

[Don Fry]

Cuban, going back to the nice picture of the Great North Road, those cars faced a similar problem, would they do that journey without breakdown,

Sorting out electric cars is no huge problem. And a lot of vehicles don't go far from base. Sit on the slide of a road in a town, and I bet, 30 per cent never go out of charge range of their base.

[Nigel R]

Electric cars will and are happening, in fact they've already happened, to get the tenses correct.

The vast majority of people's trip patterns are completely covered by the existing plug-in hybrid approach. Even with the current electric range they cover 90% of commutes (which is really what needs to be covered). When they hit 100 mile range (on an old battery with mr. average at the wheel, not the optimistic "brand new no lights no air con perfect economy driving" quote that the manufacturer will give you), then there is no range issue for 99% of trips. And the hybrid drivetrain gets you all the range you need at the drop of a hat. Holidaying in Scotland / South of France / Kazhakstan? Charge before you go, fill up on petrol as soon as you need and let the generator recharge your battery as you drive the rest of the way. Local commutes all on overnight charges.

I'm honestly not sure what people are worried about. A charge point network is not the end user's concern right now. You can use the existing infrastructure to just fill up and go.

The main obstacle here is people's attitudes, as this thread aptly demonstrates!

[Alan Jarvis]

In terms of air pollution, according to a piece on Radio 4 a few weeks ago, around 50% of air pollution from vehicles comes from brakes and tyres.

​The new Nissan Leaf uses one pedal and according to test reports drivers hardly ever need to use the brakes due to regenerative engine braking. So air pollution will reduce. When we have self driving cars it may also reduce tyre wear as it may not be as aggressive as some drivers.

[Andy48]

Posted by Geoff Sleath on 21/01/2018 20:22:23:

Paul, when I was a teenager in the 1950s I worked near London right by the A1. It was a single carriageway except where it passed DeHavillands in Hatfleld and I happily cycled along it on my old 3 speed hub gear pedal cycle to night school because it was so quiet in the evenings. I met and old chap who could remember when it was little more than a cart track (no cars at all., just horse drawn traffic) but look at it now. Dual carriageway, multi-lane all the way from the M25 north to Scotland. Times change and the rate of change is increasing.

Never say 'Won't happen' because it will, one way or another.

Geoff

Nooo! Try driving along the A1 north of Newcastle. There's still 60+ miles of the A1 before you reach the Scottish border. A significant length is single carriageway, but then the powers that be never consider anything north of the Midlands, and dualling of this road has been repeatedly rejected. How much is being spent on Crossrail?

[Andy48]

Posted by eflightray on 21/01/2018 15:29:00:

I also have a hybrid, a Hyundai Ioniq, great drive. Snag is it's too much fun to drive economically, though I'm still getting 55mpg.

An electric powered car should be designed from the ground up, not just modify an existing petrol/diesel model. The current trend in 'cross-over', SUV, boxy style models ignores the advantages of good low drag aerodynamics when it comes to economy.

Ray.

I have one of those boxy SUVs with 4wd and an automatic gear box, yet it will still do 50mpg, and that figure doesn't reduce on cold mornings when the heater is going full belt and the seat heaters are on.

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Cuban8 on 22/01/2018 08:36:02:

Some very interesting comments and opinions regarding electric vehicles per se, but we have drifted a tad away from my original point concerning the possible social impact and its repercussions of putting cheap transport out of the reach of many families, in a way that is not so much of a problem now.

 

Cuban, you raise an interesting question in your OP, but second-hand markets are governed by the laws of economics, and one of those is that markets tend to shift in a way that minimises the social effect of a change: in this case a switch to electric cars.

OK, so that's a bit abstract, but one interpretation is this: initially, there will be a surplus of second hand conventional cars, as people switch over to electric. By the time this supply dries up (let's say 10 years after the point at which 50% of new sales are electric), then there will be a surplus of cheap, quality, electric cars for the second hand buyer, and here's why. Progress will be fast enough that the people who want to buy new cars every couple of years will do so, just because they want the latest features. Arguably, it's plausible that the mechanical depreciation will decrease less fast than the financial depreciation (due to simplicity - fewer moving parts to go wrong).

Hence it's possible you could be better off!

Edited By The Wright Stuff on 22/01/2018 13:15:23

[Nigel R]

This thread is like an episode of mythbusters

[Toni Reynaud]

Plug-in hybrids are NOT electric cars. Maybe they have an electric capability, but for some of them it's quite short. I talked to one chap who had a big SUV type hybrid and he was quite annoyed that it would not cover a return journey to work of 32 miles in total, and he was not permitted to rechage it at work!!

[Don Fry]

And referring to the enlightening post by the Wright Stuff above, in a changing world, if the battery remains a huge expense, you insure it against failure. A repost that it will be expensive, has the answer you can't afford not to.

[Andy48]

.. or rely on the warranty. The warranty on the battery in a Mitsubishi Outlander, for instance, is 8 years.

With some makes you only rent the battery.

[Trevor Crook]

Andy, I assume your 50mpg SUV is a diesel? The problem with the latest diesels is that, in order to meet the current Euro 6 requirements, diesels are fitted with lots of complex anti-emissions kit. Probably most significant are the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) and AdBlue system. The DPF traps the tiny particles emitted by diesels and stops them getting to our lungs. If the car is used for plenty of long trips at a decent speed, the build up of soot in the DPF will be burnt off, this is so-called passive regeneration. If the car is used for short trips, the engine will perform active regeneration, which involves injecting extra fuel to burn off the soot. If the engine is switched off during an active regeneration cycle the excess fuel can run down past the pistons and into the sump. If this happens repeatedly, the oil level can rise from the fuel contamination and damage can result.

The AdBlue system contains a tank of a urea based additive, which must be topped up ever few thousand miles. This additive reduces poisonous NOx emissions.

Since retiring I only cover about 6000 miles per year so petrol is best for me. But if I occasionally towed a caravan that could be a problem, as torquey petrol tow cars are thin on the ground and expensive.

Apologies if you already knew all of this, and for wittering off topic.

[Andy48]

It is a diesel, and meets Euro 6b. I am well aware of the issues, and this car does not use Adblue; not all diesels do. You can also switch the engine off during the regen process to no ill effect. There is a problem with oil in the sump during regen, apparently this is due to the % of biofuel used in the UK which does not evaporate in the sump like ordinary diesel. A couple of years ago the service limit for this engine was increased from 9,000 miles to 12,500 miles, as again the manufacturer has sorted the regen problem out through an improved regen process.

Both my OH and I do about 8,000 miles each, we both have the same car and we do tow a caravan.

[Nigel R]

"Plug-in hybrids are NOT electric cars. Maybe they have an electric capability, but for some of them it's quite short"

They have an electric motor capable of driving the car, for a range of XYZ miles. During that time the ICE is going for a ride, the car is effectively electric, the ICE is playing a reserve role.

If the manufacturer does it right, XYZ is large, and the ICE is not needed to contribute to regular driving, with all power coming from an overnight charge.

Or it is done badly, and XYZ is small.

Or perhaps the manufacturer is playing tax dodges, to allow people to drive a great big truck for slightly less money than the diesel version.

You are free to choose whichever of these flavours you like best. I'd suggest the first one makes a lot of sense as an all round replacement for our normal petrol/diesel motors.