Jump to content

Newbie with some starter trainer plane balsa IC questions please.


Nu Me 1
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

Having just joined, and via the introduction section, I would like some help please. You may want to make that cuppa, open that beer or use the loo before you read on........

Background

I am an old bloke who has never flown a model RC plane before. I did make a balsa, dope and banded plane kit in the 1970's but after crashing on the first run I haven't dabbled since. I am handy, having a background in furniture making and and am technically minded having restored a number of 2 stroke motorcycles. I have space to leave things safely half assembled.

Where I would like to be

Having spent a while searching the Tinterweb, I have found a nearby model flying club. I would like to buy a kit (balsa??) where I would get enjoyment out of the build before I learnt to fly. This, so far, has narrowed my search to kit trainers and 2 are looking good to me; a SIG KADET LT-40 or a Ben Buckle Junior 60 I.C. I think I am looking at IC power.

Am I heading for a world of pain or on the right'ish tracks please?

Am I making the right choice with IC over electric?

Are the 2 planes I have mentioned above OK, the right choice or is there something better?

I could go out and buy a foam kit and bits but the thought of making something I can fly does appeal to me (At the moment at least!!)indecision

I will leave it there for now but do have some questions on other bits once my mind is clear on the type of plane.

Thanking you in advance.

Nu

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are into pain territory.

Go down the club, sort out a SENSIBLE guru, i.e. A practical person who flys rather that gobs on. Follow the advice.

Sig Kadett looks better as a training plane, but an electric motor in it will get you a whole lot less grief, while you learn to fly. Then migrate to proper power plants. It's not an easy skill, one step at a toime.

Mind you might just think, why bother to migrate.

Best of luck. Bye the bye, build your own airframes. A bit of love and blood makes them fly better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you like bikes and engines, the glow route may not be so hard.

Find a club, definitely, find someone who flies a lot and has planes with engines, ask if they can assist.

The guys doing a lot of flying, and to quote another forum member,, the guys who take home the same number of intact airplanes they arrive with,they're the ones to talk to and learn from.

Kadett is a good choice. Mascot also good choice.

I agree with percy, a super 60 is better than junior 60. Kadett / Mascot I would suggest above both though.

Would suggest you find a copy of the old david boddington book, "radio control primer" - usually goes for a couple of pounds on ebay or amazon. Aimed at beginners in the era when all beginners built a trainer airplane from wood and used glow motors. Very good learner information. Has a lot about installing radio gear as well. Will be relevant for the route you are suggesting. Lastly, it contains drawings (small, but with dimensions) for 'pronto'. Easy build balsa trainer. Would also be a very good choice.

Do consider that buying a cheap electric foam trainer allows you to get flying and get experience quickly. While you build a bigger IC powered airframe at home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

a super 60 with a 50 size 4 stroke would get my vote. While some will argue there is more faff to ic than electric i find it totally the opposite as charging enough batteries for a days flying was far more inconvenient than wiping up a bit of oil. Longer flying times and more or less unlimited flying in a day are big plus points for ic as well.

My only note of caution on the super 60 is that you may not find many instructors who are well versed in that type of model. The S60 is a real stick and rudder machine and while easy to fly it will not fly arrow straight all the time. Personally i think this makes it a great trainer as you dont learn anything if its too easy but others may disagree and instructors not used to that type of model may find it harder to teach you.

The electric vs ic debate has raged long and hard over the years. There is no right answer really, so dont let the opinions of others influence you too far. By all means listen to all the opinions and do your research, but if you want an ic model then by all means go for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the quick replies.

Percy, I looked at the Mascot but prefer the Sig LT40. Given all three of you think the Sig Kadett is a good choice, I think that the plane is decided - thanks.

IC vs electric - I think Nigel has hit the nail on the head as I love the smell and sound of a good engine so, whilst I appreciate clean and quiet, A IC it is going to be.

Foam vs wood - Don has it here, Splinters and blood can only add to the "enjoyment" of a kit, can't it?? I can always get a foamy when I have less fingers.

Nigel - I will have a look for the book, thanks. I do have a radio question.....

I have got an online supplier to give me a list of what I would need to build the two kits I originally mentioned. I do appreciate that they would suggest items they stocked. They suggested Futaba T6L Sport 2.4G T-FHSS R3106GF P-CB6L with Futaba S3003 Servo's. I didn't give them a budget so they may have suggested this to keep the costs reasonable. I am happy to spend a little more on a TX - on the premise that it may be used for one that one model in the future. Any better suggestions at circa £200 TX only range please? Is 6 channels enough or should I go for an 8 - just in case? Also there doesn't seem to be any power in the plane. I have read somewhere about a controller but am not sure how the reciever would be powered. Can someone explain please?

Thanks again in advance.

Nu

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my experience of still being a beginner, vintage style models like the Super 60 are the way to go. They are designed to fly on early radio equipment, three channel, some actually for single channel, then modified to 2, 3, 4 channel. This means that they had to be pretty stable on their own, which corresponds to giving plenty of time for a beginner to think.

Build it yourself is fun, if you have time to complete it before really really really wanting to fly. Everyone says you will crash, if you built it you can mend it.

There will be good advice if you post your progress and questions on this forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Radio choice is a very difficult one....there are so many choices. Ask 10 modellers & you'll probably get 11 answers. I'm a Futaba man...have been since the 70s but even I have to admit they are a little bit behind the curve these days. For starting out I think a cheap 6 channel set will be fine.....then as you get more into the hobby look to upgrade to a more capable system. If more vintage flying is your thing then it could be that a cheap 6 channel set will be all you need. Like mobile phones transmitters often have much more functionality that most flyers need....

Your on board radio will need a power supply....for IC models this is often a small 4 AA cell rechargeable battery pack & will come with the radio set usually. The "controller" you read about was probably an ESC or Electronic Speed Controller...these provide the "throttling" of an electric motor & have a built in circuit that bleeds a little power off the large motor battery to feed the radio. This circuit is termed a BEC or battery elimination circuit.

Enjoy your new hobby....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Seagull Boomerang trainer comes in two types. ARTF. and as a kit. Boomerang is a great little trainer, and are easily mended . The kit is available for £99 and in stock at Kings Lynn models, Leeds model shop. The ARTF version is £112.. The SIG Kadet is £140

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Morning all,

Thanks for the advice and updates. This is where I think I am at this morning:

80% SIG Kadett but I will take another look at the Super 60. Carperfect - I researched the Seagull Boomerang trainer and can see some advantages with things like not having to cover the frame however, TBH, I don't like the colour scheme. I have read through the online assembly manual - which I found really good. I was in Kings Lynn last week on my way to Hunstanton for a weeks holiday.

Steve - I think the shop guy who listed out what I would need left off the battery. No big deal but It did appear to me that the receiver would need power from somewhere. He also forgot to add a prop to the list.

Percy - Good advice, I guess at some point I will need to buy and fit the servos, receiver and battery but it doesn't have to be day one.

Thank again for all of the advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nu Me 1, welcome to the forum!

I learned to fly on the Junior 60, in fact I've built two, and I've still got the original model though it's a bit like Trigger's broom these days. I love its slow flying characteristics and massive stability.

junior 60 in flight.jpg

junior 60.jpg

That said, I agree with Percy that the Super Sixty is a better r/c trainer. It may be built with or without ailerons, it goes where you put it and handles gusts of wind better. I've had two of those.

super 60 squadron 2.jpg

However, my favourite vintage aircraft for training beginners is the Radio Queen. They are larger than the other models so far discussed, they are easy to see and don't require a great deal of power. I've seen one fly on an Enya 40 four-stroke.

radio queen and T240, Forton, 2007..jpg

Strange that the Boomerang has been mentioned. This is my favourite ARTF trainer, its semi-symmetrical wing section allows it to fly in a stiff breeze, and you can finish it with a tricycle or conventional undercarriage. I was going to suggest that you buy one of those, put a good 46 in the nose and learn to fly on it while you built a vintage model. I'd forgotten that it was available as a kit. If I were in your position and you didn't want an ARTF, I'd give this model some serious consideration.

The SIG Kadett LT 40 has a good reputation but I've never flown one. I think an old friend had one but I never got to fly it because I am a Mode 2 pilot and he was Mode 1. He died of leukaemia in 2004 and after all of this time I cannot be sure that it was in fact an LT40.

A brief note on engines. I love fourstrokes but even experienced fliers sometimes crash. I crashed a simple three-channel model a fortnight ago. I was using carbon fibre pushrods for the first time and didn't realise that you needed to secure the clevises with locking nuts. blush As a result the rod unscrewed itself and I had no directional control. Lesson learned. However, my much-loved OS 52 FS was damaged in the crash. Anyone got a spare cylinder head for an OS52? So, I'd recommend that you started with a two-stroke, they are more cheaply replaced or repaired.

Final note. Please join a club and get an experienced pilot to train you on a "buddy box," a system which links two transmitters. The instructor holds down a sprung button or lever to give you control and regains control once you have started to make a horlicks of things and believe me, at first, you will. Later on you will be able to recover from your own mistakes without the instructor's intervention unless he leaves it too late of course! blush

enya 50 and boomerang.jpg

Best of luck to you whatever you decide to do.

Edited By David Davis on 11/07/2019 08:50:27

Edited By David Davis on 11/07/2019 09:16:19

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a few comments to possibly help or confuse!

Sig Kits are extremely high quality with excellent instructions. You should be able to down load the instructions from the Internet so you can study them (A club member downloaded a set fo another Sig kit.

Super 60 is a great model and once set up will fly hands off very easily. You would only need a .40 four stroke or a .35 two stroke for edequate power.

Kadett will be less fiddly to build but still be interesting unlike any foamie (Yawn)

I.C power is great and is my first love but the gear needed is heavier to lug up to the flying field. Not a problem if you can off load by the pits. a bit of a pain if you have a couple of hundred yards up a hill! But then I am getting (Getting?) old.

Electric needs less to carry.

Good four strokes are available at reasonable prices on EBay. Pay attention to sellers feed back!

Have fun!!!

Here is a link to the Kadett manual.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/874352/Sig-Kadet-Lt-40.html

 

Edited By Peter Miller on 11/07/2019 08:54:51

Edited By Peter Miller on 11/07/2019 08:59:57

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nigel - Book ordered.

David - thank for the information and great pictures. The last one I, I guess, is par for the course. I have decided on a IC 2 stroke now. Thanks.

Peter - You have helped me confirm that my first plane will be the SIG Kadett. As mentioned above, there will be some questions on what one a little later in this post. I had already downloaded a manual for the Kadett but I do appreciate the link. Thanks.

 

OK, so this morning my first plane choice has been made. Partially due to all of your advice (thanks) and partially as it seems to be a quality kit and a little more comprehensive than some of the others - although this is reflected in the price. My choice is the SIG Kadett LT-40.

The next thing is to make sure I get the right power. It will be an IC. and it will be a 2 stroke. My workshop smells of 2 stoke anyway due to the number of bikes I have in there over the years.

All gone now!

Anyway, back to the plane. A site I have looked at says " Engine Required: (not included) 2-Stroke .40 - .46 cu. in. (6.5 - 7.5 cc), 4-Stroke .40 - .54 cu. in. (6.5 - 8.8 cc)" and the guy has recommended the OS Max 46AXII Engine with E-3071 Silencer. Any views on that please? Also, any views on a prop size and material? Thanks!

Last question of this post; will the plane box fit under my jacket so the better half doesn't realise I have smuggled it through the house?

Thanks for all of the input, and about time for another brew/beer or loo break.

Cheers

Nu

 

 

Edited By Nu Me 1 on 11/07/2019 11:09:13

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You will not go wrong with an OS 46AX. My club has a couple of trainers fitted with those and they have proved to be excellent. Several new members have gone on to buy their own ARTF trainers and all but one have chosen the OS and he would have bought an OS if he had had the budget.

These are very fine engines if a little expensive. Your LT40 is larger than the average ARTF trainer but you won't find yourself lacking power if you go with one of these, neither will it overpower the model.

Edited By David Davis on 11/07/2019 11:20:33

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice engine. One thing about radios, you club will have people who will help to to fly. Before you buy, make sure it's a brand that has a good following in the club, so if you get stuck, there is someone with an answer. You can't expect someone to learn to program a transmitter they will never use again.

And no you can't hide it. Negotiations are necessary. Mine settles for shoes, handbags, and diamonds.

Edited By Don Fry on 11/07/2019 11:21:17

Link to comment
Share on other sites

David/Don - Thanks for confirmation about the OS engines. I know size isn't important blush

Don - Interesting about the transmitters, I didn't even realise they had modes until yesterday. I just thought they were all right hand drives.......Not being able to tuck it under my jacket I can get over, I see a trip to Primark coming and I will push the boat out and give her £20 to spend - that should do it!!

Cuban - answered.

Fun Flyer - The Super 60 got beaten by the LT-60.

So far confirmed:

Plane: SIG Kadett LT-60

Engine: OS Max 46AXII Engine with E-3071 Silencer

Thanks again, so far, it is very much appriciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted by Nu Me 1 on 11/07/2019 11:25:02:

Both yellow are RD400's and the red one is a Suzi TS250.

yes Very nice and very collectable now. Didn't own one myself, but had many hair raising moments on the pillion of a mate's 400 back in the late 70's. Had a CS5E 200 (still pretty quick) which as you'll know along with the YDS7 and others was the predecessor to the RDs.

Got caught by the sixteener moped law in '73 (another quite ridiculous piece of legislation) so plans to start on a Triumph Tiger Cub had to be discarded. Still a Trumpet fan, a nice, almost new T100 Bonne is on its way!

Must start a Motorbike thread.

BTW, to keep on topic, a number of clubmates have come to grief when modernising vintage types and then overpowering and flying them in a full blown R/C fashion often in weather that would have kept the originals firmly on the deck - or blown over!. ..........result busted balsa wing spars and a written off model. Swap for hardwood spars, maybe a little extra webbing. Minimal weight penalty, only the purists will complain, but will give you a nice safe practical model. Super 60 goes well with these mods and has a better flight envelope/performance compared to many of the old'uns for modern sport flying IMHO.

Personally, I recommend something a bit more up to date to start on and learn the ropes. No reason not to start with a four channel model if you can get buddy box help. You'll make quicker progress, find it more enjoyable and than can go to the delights of three channel flying with confidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did you mean LT60? there seems to be 2 sizes of kadett with 40 and 60 being offered. To be honest there is little between them, only about 8 inches span, and both will fly just fine on a 46 2 stroke and the larger size of the 60 will only make it fly better in my view. You can also see it nicely at a distance

On the subject of engines, the os46ax is a good choice but so is an ASP 46 or 52. Not available new i dont think but 2nd hand there are likely to be a few hanging about.

If you go 2nd hand give OS 46fx's a miss as they were known for the cylinder plating falling off and causing all sorts of mischief. If someone has one for sale and you can take the head off and have a look then by all means go for it, but on ebay i would avoid them.

Just to add my views on the radio i would take the futaba 6..j? k? i cant remember what letter they are up to now. I use the 8j and its been faultless. In 25 years flying futaba i have only lost one model to a radio problem and that was due to a mechanical failure. 3003 servos are fine as are 148's. The futaba 148 has been around since the dawn of time and it just works.

EDIT

Looking closely i just noticed the lt60 has no ailerons. I wouldnt go for that, i would always learn with 4 channels and not 3

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 11/07/2019 12:37:15

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jon - I was the LT-40 I was looking at. I was looking at new engines. Much as I know my way around a 2 stroke, I don't want to add to any issues on the first few flights. Thanks for the heads up re: some nickel plate. I know that this was an issue in some motorcycles and you can get them re-plated however, I am not sure it would be worth it on an affordable RC engine??

Thanks for the info on the Futaba equipment. I will do a little more reading but appreciated the experience.

Project so far

Plane: SIG Kadett LT-60 - Now ordered

Engine: OS Max 46AXII Engine with E-3071 Silencer - Now ordered

Some resin, glue and pins - Now ordered

Thank you all, I am sure there is much more I will need to ask.

Next will either be some bottoming out on electrics or what film and iron to get. Not sure which at the moment as I need to get my head around what I would like to ask.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Cuban

Some old classics in your list. too. That pic is about 4 years old. sold everything on now except for my main bike.

A Duke Monster 1200 S.

The 250cc laws did me in for a short while back then. I would be happy to contribute to a motorbike thread (it would help me give a little back).

Back on topic, I have ordered the plane now and will learn via a buddy box. I really want the experience of building a big trainer and am sure that, as with bikes, one will not be enough.

Thanks for the tips on strengthening. I have never been a purest!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...