Paul Ashford Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 I have come up against a problem with the Vintage Models kit of the KK Elmira in that the wire supplied for the wing join is 10 SWG (3.25mm) but the tubing in which it is intended to fit is 8 SWG, not a snug fit! A route around in my spares box produced some 4mm ally tubing that will take the 10 gauge wire with a little persuasion. However I do not have enough for the job so ordered some more from a local supplier (ATM4), on receiving the new stock I found the wall thickness was greater and the 10 gauge wire could not be persuaded to fit. Has anyone out there had this problem and could share their solution please. Thanks, Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff 1959 Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Can't you go back to VM and ask for the correct tubing? I don't see why you should be put to all this trouble? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 Cliff, Done that and they have been trying to sort it out with their suppliers, the problem seams to be tubing is now manufactured in millimetres diameter, and the 10 swg wire I suspect is the problem. They can find a fit at 12 gauge but this would not be optimum for the bending moments at the wing join. I and working with VM to come up with a solution but thought I would through this out there to see if anyone else had come up against the same problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Bernard Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 I agree with Cliff - it is for VM to sort out and if they can only get metric tubing, then they should provide equivalent metric wire! Not for you to have to mess about to find a solution to their problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Clark 2 Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Posted by Pauil Ashford on 13/07/2020 15:56:37: I have come up against a problem with the Vintage Models kit of the KK Elmira in that the wire supplied for the wing join is 10 SWG (3.25mm) but the tubing in which it is intended to fit is 8 SWG, not a snug fit! A route around in my spares box produced some 4mm ally tubing that will take the 10 gauge wire with a little persuasion. However I do not have enough for the job so ordered some more from a local supplier (ATM4), on receiving the new stock I found the wall thickness was greater and the 10 gauge wire could not be persuaded to fit. Has anyone out there had this problem and could share their solution please. Thanks, Paul. Better to use 8 SWG wire. 10 is very thin for a model that size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers Bowlan Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 If Vintage Model Kits don't come up with a solution you could try some K & S tubing (ali or brass) to fit the wire you have if possible, or alternatively substitute a metric dia. steel or carbon fibre joiner and tube to fit. SLEC also do wing joiner tubes of all sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers Bowlan Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Ops, double post! Edited By Piers Bowlan on 13/07/2020 20:53:34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 I think I'd use Carbon Rod and matching tube(s) if I was to build a new wing. Be aware that most of the bending load is actually taken by the spruce tongue inserted between the spars. My advice here is to make sure you can slide this spruce into both the centre and tip panels. They do break occasionally if the landing catches a tip and swings/pivots the tip against the center panel. I have an original KK Elmira still flying. It was refurbished and updated in 2006 to include ailerons and reduced dihedral. The original was known for poor rudder response and I concur hence my addition of ailerons. Keep speed up too as the wing tips are narrow with a fairly thick aerofoil. Mine has a vicious tendency to drop a wing if slowed too much. But it is a fine flyer otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 Nigel, I had come up with the same solution, 5mm carbon rod slides in nicely to the 8swg brass tube supplied so I'd probably use that. Interesting you mention the spruce joiner, this isn't supplied in my kit and I plan to replace with another carbon rod between the spars to take the bending loads on the spar. I have also incorporated ailerons having heard of the turning problems and top surface spoilers to help control landing accuracy like on my old 100s models. I am working with VM to resolve this and other problems with the kit and plan, it was a kit they acquired from another producer and they wish to update the drawing and get it right. Thanks for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Pauil For completeness here are some photos of the ORIGINAL KK wing joining method and one photo taken this morning of my "pink and cream" Elmira assembled (one day I'll find a suitable pilot my daughters "Barbie" was just too big to fit when the refurb took place 2006). Note I have the wires and spruce at different lengths as this helps aligning three interfaces doing 1 at a time. I've not flown since 2014/15 my Son has little interest in models and is very keen on competitive Kayaking so am just getting back to my aeromodelling with lockdown enforced spare time. Since the piano wire joiners are a bit rusty I'll have a bit of a job to get the wing tips back off!!! Certainly been good value I think I paid about £12 for the kit back in 1981 about 30% of my apprentice wages! Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 Posted by Piers Bowlan on 13/07/2020 20:40:13: If Vintage Model Kits don't come up with a solution you could try some K & S tubing (ali or brass) to fit the wire you have if possible, or alternatively substitute a metric dia. steel or carbon fibre joiner and tube to fit. SLEC also do wing joiner tubes of all sizes. Thanks Piers, normally I would just go down to my nearest model shop and go through their stock of K&S parts but difficult because of the current pandemic. I've never bought so much on line in the past months but sometimes you need to just go and look! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 Nige, Thanks for the photos, makes it clear how the original kit worked. I guess the two 10 gauge wire are little more than incidence pegs and the mail flight loads are carried by the spruce insert. Shows it's free flight heritage. When I get time I'll create an album on here to show construction progress. Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 Album added, KK Elmira build Vintage Model Co. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Pauil, Yes I agree FF heritage. This joiner is more than adequate I used a Bungee in the 1980's. The wings do flex quite a lot but are a very consistent U across the whole span. Even the KK build instructions drew the users attention to this. But I prefer slope flying because of longer flights (batteries permitting) which it now enjoys 100%. Do not fly without that spruce or other (carbon) stiffener if using 10SWG piano wire otherwise the wings will flap like a bird. Mine had a mishap about 1984/5 coming out of a booming thermal, being Rudder Elevator only back then I had to loop/spin (really a spiral dive) to get down. I preferred looping but one of the Spruce joiners took exception to the strain after about 30 loops and I know of the flappy wings as a consequence. The model did get some damage and went into storage for a long period as I'd become interested in model yachting. When it was refurbished by adding aileron and computerised TX I can now use a spoileron/elevator mix and application of that dips the whole wing downward if at quite (for vintage glider) high speed. So your adding spoilers is a good move. Enjoy your Elmira. Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Nice pictures of the build. I notice the aft section of the fuselage is rectangular section and that confirms my thoughts of what the VM kit would be like. On the original it is Trapizodal with the top edge about 1/4" to 3/8" narrower than the bottom. I'd confirm but its hard to measure along the tail boom now since mine was built all those years ago. The front section is as you have it. The sides are parallel upto and including the former at the wing Leading edge. Then the top and bottom sheet is heavily rounded to make it slender. Sorry the picture may not be too clear... Since the plan misses the formers I can understand why the VM co would have created rectangles. This was the old kit makers way of ensuring kits were bought not copied. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 The Elmira is a model I've long admired. It's nice looking design based on an era when full size gliders had more individual character than the modern all glass ones, albeit the performance is in a different league. Pauil & Nigel, I'm look forward to some pics & hopefully video of your Elmiras in action soon. Three or four times in the mid 1970's I went to the Isle of Man model gliding week & took part in the competitions. One of the slope comps was launch, climb, then as many loops as you could manage in a set time followed by a spot landing. One year a regular competitor entered flying a nicely built & decorated Elmira. I remember he was called Arthur (possibly Bailey) he was completely deaf but could lip read, a really nice chap & very popular cheerful character. Anyway Arthur's Elmira had caught a lot of attention so when his turn came most of the other competitors stopped whatever they were doing to watch. He launched & climbed OK then started the loops. As he reached about 5 we all started to count and call out the numbers right up to the 20th consecutive loop when there was a spontaneous burst of applause. After his spot landing Arthur had the biggest grin possible & went around telling everyone he encountered that he'd just managed 20+ consecutive loops. The funny thing was that Arthur was completely unaware of the attention he'd attracted & of course he hadn't heard the applause. I think it was the most popular model competition win I've ever witnessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted July 15, 2020 Author Share Posted July 15, 2020 PacMac, Thank you for the kind words, indeed I always admired the classic lines of this model and when looking to build Lockdown 4!! thought it was about time. It was originally intended to be a winter project but with time on my hands.... The build is progressing slowly, compounded by a few head scratching issues, but will be completed before the autumn. Photos will be added to the album as I go along. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 Wiring added for airleron and spoilers with Multiplex connector at wing join. Sheeting commenced with trailing edge, 3/32" washout added at tip tapering to Airleron root. Some builders have reported tendency to drop a wing if slowed up so washout added as an attempt to counter this. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 Outer panels fully sheeted, servo boxes finished and tips added. Ailerons cut out ready for final shaping. In the end these panels came together nicely now need to move back to the centre panel and complete that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted August 11, 2020 Author Share Posted August 11, 2020 Well that's the mainplane almost complete, all the major work done now to move onto wing attachment and then once that is done I'll move onto finishing the fuz and tail assemblies. Quite pleased how it has come out so far and now looking forward to swifter progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted August 16, 2020 Author Share Posted August 16, 2020 Canopy framework in position, the rear former F3 had to be remade approx 3mm larger all round to cater for the original problem with F4/5 being undersize at the wing intersection. The canopy transparency will stretch to fit once this is all dry. Some adjustment was also needed at F2 to fit the profile, however, the supplied former could be used. Next step will be to trim and (trial) fit canopy transparency once all is dry I can then see how much the original F4/5 will need to be built up on the top edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 And now to the canopy, I was forewarned by VMC that they had reports saying the canopy does not fit. So after making the canopy frame I then carefully cut the moulding as close as possible to the edge to leave as much material as possible. Offering up the canopy to the frame it is possible to get it to fit, JUST. However the rear of the moulding has some distortion formed during the moulding process but it is useable. For anyone else building this kit DO NOT CUT THE CANOPY MOULDING ON THE MARKED LINES, if you do it will not fit. I have emailed VMC with this information so it can be rectified when they update the kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted August 19, 2020 Author Share Posted August 19, 2020 Canopy update. Just had an email from VMC to say they are redrawing the canopy and making a new plug, new canopies will be available soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted September 6, 2020 Author Share Posted September 6, 2020 Whilst working on the canopy I noticed that the front lower cross-brace obscures the access to the front of the fuz. This was cut out and replaced lower to allow a 1000mah battery to be placed in the nose as forward as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Ashford Posted September 6, 2020 Author Share Posted September 6, 2020 The plan does not show in detail the fairings for fin and tailplane so this is my interpretation using soft balsa, the rear block was recessed to accept the fin post.Triangular balsa was also added at the base of the fin to increase the gluing area. This is the completed assembly, minus fin, dry fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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