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To stabilise or not to stabilise - the gyro question


TonyS
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Cheers Ron I agree that it’s well worth using if it improves a model or the fun to be had from it. I think I might try it for the Hurricane as it is a nightmare at low speed as it suddenly over reacts to elevator control inputs after an initial lag. . The video we took of Jon landing looked like he was having to do 3D flying movements on the sticks! If a gyro allows me to enjoy flying the hurricane that will be money well spent.

Edited By Tim Flyer on 09/09/2020 21:53:25

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When I started flying (about 7 years ago), I used a gyro so I could fly on windy days.

I now fly mainly foamies which are affected more by wind, so still use a gyro, but I switch it off when there's no wind and occasionally to 'keep my hand in'.

I use a couple of AR636 receivers and tried one with SAFE, I hated it. Even when switched off, it still gave roll assistance!

We recently had a demo flight of a show pilot at our club. He used an old Taranis radio on his 'beater' and used no gyros, it was purely skill!!

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SteveJ mentioned the ‘other’ type of gyros, flight controllers, now they are in a different league giving lots of programmable features leading to autonomous flight. Again, in my book not cheating but a completely different form of flying and takes the SAFE concept to a different level - lost the orientation of the model / lost control, press the button and return to home at preset height and speed.

@Tim - something else to consider for the Hurri?

 

Edited By Ron Gray on 10/09/2020 08:52:24

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Personally, I don't like them. Even if they are set up (supposedly) correctly, they are still far too intrusive. Stick responses are dulled and you get the "Nanny knows best" interference to any given flight pattern or manoeuvre. . . . grrrr.

Well, Nanny does NOT know best, so she doesn't get a look-in to any of my models.

However, if you like them, then use them. They are just not for me.

B.C.

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Posted by Denis Watkins on 09/09/2020 15:41:50:

A " stabilizer ", barely takes any control, but reacts very quickly, saving the likes of a £500-£1000 Hurricane

From tip stalling just for landing.

I think this is a rather dangerous trap to fall into - please don't think that a gyro or stabilised receiver can help prevent tip stalling...they are likely to exacerbate the situation unless there are some very clever ones about that I'm unaware of.

An aircraft tip stalls because one wing reaches the critical angle of attack, stalls and loses lift - a gyro reacting to this uncommanded roll will apply opposite aileron - which on your scale Hurricane will increase the angle of attack at the dropping tip, deepening the stall condition. Unless your stabilised receiver applies opposite rudder and applies appropriate down elevator, in the words of Private Fraser, "you're doomed"!

Your scale Hurricane will benefit from smoother looking flight in non-scale turbulence, reacting faster than the human brain, but you still need to control it appropriately.

Edited By Martin Harris on 10/09/2020 10:29:42

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A quick story from earlier today.

I have a Hobbyking Skipper fitted with a Lemon stabilsed receiver which I have not flown since last winter. Today I decided that the grass was wet enough to bring it out again.

The first flight was OK, a bit twitchy, but I put that down to not having flown it for a while and perhaps the gyro rates being set a bit high so when I landed I dialled the gyros back a bit.

Next flight started OK but as I was coming out of a loop at a couple of hundred feet the receiver lost signal.

Fortunately I had set up the failsafe to activate "SAFE" mode in the event of signal loss.

I expected to be taking several large bits of foam back in a bin liner but as I watched, the receiver cut the motor, rolled the model upright, pulled out of the dive into a gentle glide and executed a perfect downwind landing on the strip about 10 metres from my feet all with no input from me.

Now a lot of this was luck, I had enough height for the receiver to react, it just happened to roll in my direction and there were no obstacles in the way, but even so I was quite impressed.

What I was less impressed with was that when I did a range test it was down by about half so the receiver is being replaced, but its a lot cheaper than a model!

Memo to self, if it's not been flown for a while, do a range test!

Edited By Shaun Walsh on 10/09/2020 14:10:57

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Hi Chris re the Hurricane Will let you know if it works..I have never used a gyro before apart from a number of years ago on my son’s e-flight apprentice trainer. I certainly didn’t like that gyro receiver and we soon got rid of that...so the new “6 axis Futaba gyro” I have ordered will be an education!
The object is not to prevent tip stall from pilot error in terms of angle of attack/speed ...but more to tame the sudden unpredictable handling traits this particular plane has due to a problematic wing chord/thickness ratio.
The giro will have a TX switch controlling it, so if it’s a pain it can instantly be turned off.

I spoke to Jon about it and he does not think it will help but even so I think it might be worth a try even if just to educate me on giro technology! Anyway I have ordered it so it’s going to be tested😊

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I use a FrSky SxR on several models. In stabilise mode, it just makes the model feel larger, so is useful for smaller models in windy (gusty) conditions. In "auto-level" mode it normally makes the model fly quite differently and gets in the way. I configure the Tx so that if I have auto-level enabled (on a switch), as soon as I move either aileron or elevator off centre, auto-level is switched off.

Mike

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For the avoidance of doubt, gyros are not allowed in F3A competition. If you use a gyro out of competition then you might be caught out when in competition and need to land with 90 deg x winds. You can almost always guarantee that weather for a competition is likely to be challenging! So, I see no point in using a gyro when practising as you will not be practising the phase of flight that is most likely to result in damage to the aircraft.

I have to say I've never used a gyro but then again none of my aircraft are dodgy to fly, even my scale ones. If you have a twitchy aircraft it's usually caused either by a rearward CG or excessive control throws. Generally speaking, once those are sorted out the aircraft behaves very well. Of course, there are the small heavy true scale models which will always be challenging to fly but may be even more challenging while you get the gyro sorted out!

I've always enjoyed the frisson of a hobby/sport in which you are a short step away from converting your much prized aeroplane into bin bag fodder. Then again, perhaps I'm the odd one out. I have broken quite a few props and undercarriages when landing in challenging cross winds or just gusty weather but those are, to me I stress, useful learning points and spur me on to improve my technique. I can see the benefit of gyros to others who may not fly regularly as there is nothing more dispiriting than coming out now and then once your pride and joy has been repaired to take it straight back to the workshop after the first arrival.

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I'm really liking this topic! Now to add more fuel to the fire:

For those who decry, bemoan, think it's cheating, say 'improve your piloting skills', let me ask you this: do you use a TX switch to control different rates, do you use TX mixes, do you use flight modes with different settings for different elements of the flying cycle (stall turns, knife edge, landing, take off etc)? I would argue that if the answer to any of the above is YES then you are not fully controlling your 'plane, you are automating parts of the control (in fact the only pilot skill required is to activate a switch). Isn't a gyro really just an extension of this?

Now when I'm talking about gyros I'm not talking about flight controllers, whereby flight patterns can be pre-programmed, or even gyros where there are different flight modes in built for knife edge, prop hanging etc, I'm referring to basic gyro settings that stabilise the 'plane, so maybe better to be called flight stabilisers.

Ready to receive the flak!

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I’d go one further Ron and add that full size aircraft make full use of all manner of gyro stabilisation, indeed some won’t actually fly without assistance (Harrier etc) and so why would we RC pilots decry the use.

Isnt that a bit like a Ford Pop driver poo-pooing a paddle shift gearbox and saying that anything other than double de-clutching isn’t really proper driving but is cheating?

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Posted by TonyS on 12/09/2020 08:18:42:
Isnt that a bit like a Ford Pop driver poo-pooing a paddle shift gearbox and saying that anything other than double de-clutching isn’t really proper driving but is cheating?

Well, a paddle shift gearbox may well be perfect in a Formula One car (less than one turn on the steering, lock to lock), but is absolutely abysmal on a road car. Its simply a gadget for wannabe racing drivers.

I was racing with sequential gearboxes decades ago, and if anyone had suggested a shift mechanism like paddle shifts, he would have been laughed off the track!

We used something akin to a column-shift, moving it one way to change up and the other to change down. It was always at your finger-tips, regardless of the position of the steering wheel. Paddle shifts are just ergonomic insanity in a road car.

The occasions when I've had to drive a car with them, I've just left it in full "auto" mode. Absolute nightmare devices!

And don't get me started on electric handbrakes!

Bah! Humbug!

--

Pete

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Cheating implies there are specific rules being broken, as far as I know there are no rules for the non competitive flyer regarding the use of giros.

If you want to use them do so, if you don't then don't use them then don't

Now heading so far off topic its lost the plot and off to the field for a bit of stick bashing laugh

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Posted by Chris Walby on 12/09/2020 09:59:48:

Cheating implies there are specific rules being broken, as far as I know there are no rules for the non competitive flyer regarding the use of giros.

The term "giro" relates to the circulation of money, which is a definite no-no in most forms of competition. Does this mean that when I next fly my gyro stabilised model, you will be expecting me to transfer a little something to your bank account?

cheeky

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Posted by TonyS on 08/09/2020 21:50:20:

I guess there’s a bit of a purist in me. Gyros didn’t exist when I started flying and I’ve always thought that it’s a cop out from actually learning how to properly fly a plane but........

I’ve found myself wondering on a couple of occasions recently whether a gyro might not make sense in certain circumstances.

what does everyone else think?

Am I just a dinosaur for thinking gyros are cheating?


Just refreshing the OP to show that we’re not really off topic, well apart from sequential gear changing!

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Posted by Peter Christy on 12/09/2020 09:01:59:
Posted by TonyS on 12/09/2020 08:18:42:
Isnt that a bit like a Ford Pop driver poo-pooing a paddle shift gearbox and saying that anything other than double de-clutching isn’t really proper driving but is cheating?

Well, a paddle shift gearbox may well be perfect in a Formula One car (less than one turn on the steering, lock to lock), but is absolutely abysmal on a road car. Its simply a gadget for wannabe racing drivers.

The occasions when I've had to drive a car with them, I've just left it in full "auto" mode. Absolute nightmare devices!

Pete

Having got one that came with my 2nd hand car, I tend to agree, the only time I use mine is to drop a gear or 2 on a decent to stop the car from speeding up without holding the brakes, just like you would on a manual.

As for stablisers it all depends how they are used and set up, in dampening mode they can sit in the background and just extend the flying conditions of lightweight airframes that get pushed round in the wind, but in full auto mode they can make it like you aren't flying the model, but if you are a beginner and don't have any help they will help preserve the model and let you get in the air. Some of the self leveling and return to home systems are quite impressive, as long as the pilot knows which switch to hit laugh

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I fitted a gyro to my SKY 40 a few years ago .

The reason was to be able to fly in gusty weather thing we have a lot of at our flying site .

It was great fun experimenting with the gains while flying .

I soon realised how fast it can drain a battery when set at 100% ! ! !

It's the first time my fail safe kicked in . I did land safely .

I now only use it when conditions change on take off or for landing on "Winnie the Pooh " days and then set at only 25% .

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I wish I hadn't used paddle shifts as the example - it seems that raises one or two people's blood pressure!!

One other on-point topic perhaps is that models are becoming heavier faster, more sophisticated and therefore technology becomes integral now where perhaps someone with a crystal set Tx and a high wing balsa, tissue and dope early RC plane could easily handle everything with a simple up/down, left/right + throttle set up. Life moves on...

Anyway, I have taken the plunge and will fit it to the Gloster. If nothing else it may make me less reluctant to get it airborne.

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