New limit on groups in England from Monday?

[MattyB]

Given we are a small club and rarely have >6 at the field we are simply asking members to take (socially distanced) pics of each other then mail them to a Club email address. Every pic is time stamped and we have everyone’s contact details already so that should be more than sufficient.

Edited By MattyB on 15/09/2020 01:55:55

[Ron Gray]

Sorry but I’m getting confused here! @MattyB - if you only have groups of <6 why the need for any records? (Apart from good practice).

[Denis Watkins]

Have looked in early as we are flying this morning

Ron

" good practice and records "

Means we can fly as an organised sports group safely with up to 30

Everyone in attendance has to co-operate

[ken anderson.]

or you can gather together as many as you want....as long as your dressed as builders....

ken anderson...ne...1....tongue in cheek dept.

[leccyflyer]

Doesn't it have to be a builder. motorcycle cop, Red Indian Chief, biker, cowboy and soldier?

[Ron Gray]

@Denis - groups of 6, keeping distance, is not an organised sports group is it, it is an informal group / session? Therefore, as per my post above, there is no 'official' need to record.

If the club wants to run an event, fly-in, etc then that is an organised event and they must follow the Gov rules and do risk assessment etc etc as per Andy's link above and that would include records.

As far as I can see there are only a couple of noted gatherings (funerals etc) where the magic number of 30 appears.

Unless, of course, clubs fall under the category of 'providers of outdoor facilities' or we are considered to be a team sport (by definition I think the latter can be ruled out unless competitions are involved).

Maybe @Andy Symons could give a little bit more clarity?

[Chris Berry]

Our club normally has a sign in/out book. Name, date, time in/out.

Our landlord required us to cease using that back in May due to covid but hopefully it will be resumed in a few months.

Since then we've operated a very simple excel spreadsheet. Members phone email, text. WhatsApp, pony express etc etc me and I add their names to the list. Initially there were slots/time limits now we've increased numbers but are still able to manage bookings. We looked at online systems but not all our members are online/computer savy and it allows us to control attendance rather than have a free for all on an online system.

[MattyB]

Posted by Ron Gray on 15/09/2020 06:31:07:

Sorry but I’m getting confused here! @MattyB - if you only have groups of <6 why the need for any records? (Apart from good practice).

We don’t only have groups of less than 6 under normal conditions; I said rarely 6 or more, not never. A record of attendance is necessary because if someone tests positive after flying the club need to be able to show they can support the track and trace process. It’s all in the BMFA guidance released a few days ago.

[MattyB]

Posted by Ron Gray on 15/09/2020 08:08:05:

@Denis - groups of 6, keeping distance, is not an organised sports group is it, it is an informal group / session? Therefore, as per my post above, there is no 'official' need to record.

If the club wants to run an event, fly-in, etc then that is an organised event and they must follow the Gov rules and do risk assessment etc etc as per Andy's link above and that would include records.

As far as I can see there are only a couple of noted gatherings (funerals etc) where the magic number of 30 appears.

The BMFA guidance (which I am sure they have given out following legal advice and/or discussions with Gov officials) seems pretty unequivocal to me - irrelevant of the whether people are in “bubbles” of 6 or less, if you have more than 6 onsite you have to follow the COVID Secure guidance:

”Guidance for Model Flying Clubs and Competition and Event Organisers

If clubs wish to have more than 6 members on site, they must be compliant with COVID-19 Secure guidance which includes having a COVID-19 risk assessment and a Track and Trace protocol in place. See our six steps to being COVID-19 Secure for Model Flying Clubs at **LINK**”

Let me put it another way... If you were a club official would you want to inform a member of Track and Trace that more than 6 people attend the club at a time but there is no attendance mechanism?

Edited By MattyB on 15/09/2020 08:54:56

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Off topic posts removed. Please start a new thread for comments about the government and covid in general.

[Ron Gray]

Sorry to keep going on about this but I would like to see confirmation from the BMFA to indicate under which category they are placing 'meeting up at the field for a flying session'. The reason I'm looking for an answer is because the guidelines make clear distinctions between organised and informal sports, also team sports. 2.10 is quite clear in respect of groups of more than 6:

Note that the reference is to a group of 6, not groups of 6.

Currently, in my club, there are different views about this and rather than just accept the statement made earlier in this thread more information would help our dilemma.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Clubs in my opinion are not informal, you organised, put things in place, run your own field, have rules and constitutions, we are not an informal gathering kicking a football about on the local field or park. We're subject to rules and have a National association.

[Ron Gray]

I agree that a club is not informal but the meeting up of a few flying mates at the field on a bit of a whim is not an organised event is it? If the club created the event, rather than a member, then I would think that then could be classified as organised.

The fact that we are part of a club makes no difference to whether the event is organised or not and I believe that is the crucial part. Having a national association has no bearing on the matter.

Like I said earlier, there differing views about this in our club at the moment so clarity from the BMFA would be great as we are in the process of reconfiguring Teamup to suit.

[cymaz]

Posted by leccyflyer on 15/09/2020 08:05:09:

Doesn't it have to be a builder. motorcycle cop, Red Indian Chief, biker, cowboy and soldier?

And, indeed, any member of the YMCA

[Denis Watkins]

Apologies Ron, I was away and you asked me a question.

You have identified the crucial part, that we don't gather on a whim

And previous posts have set out that the Covid Safe mechanism should be in place.

Those flyers present should appear on a list so as they are contactable to track and trace.

" Booking " is accepted as being organised.

My concern was that observers outside our club may think we are breaking the law if they saw more than 6 on the field

[Ron Gray]

Another discussion point tin our club about the groups of 6 (let's assume that multiple groups are allowed). On our sites there is a need for a spotter to be in attendance whenever there is flying taking place. So we have a group of 6 already on site but a 7th member turns up. now he would be part of the next group of 6 but he can't fly as he doesn't have a spotter. So a member of the first group drops out from that group and joins the 7th member as part of the new group. Is that allowed or does it fall foul of the 'no mingling' rule that is now included in the guidelines?

Second scenario, a group of 6 is on site but 1 member goes home leaving 5, can another member now turn up and join the 5 to form a new group of 6 or, for that event, would that group now be classified as a group of 7? If you think about the logic, that is if 1 member of the original group had Covid then the transmission is limited to 6 but when 1 leaves and another joins that transmission goes up to 7.

[leccyflyer]

So, to put that in context, do you leave the bag of corn with the chickens, or leave one of the chickens with the fox? Or simply row across the river with the chickens and leave the fox and the corn on the bank? Then what?

Does the rule of six actually apply within the larger group which is currently permitted under the auspices of "organised sport"? Shouldn't it be x individuals who are all practicing social distancing, turning up to fly, not to socialise and so shouldn't actually be in groups at all?

It is a bit of an academic distinction up here anyway with yesterday's advice to avoid non-essential travel if you can.

[Ron Gray]

Thanks for responding Denis but where does it say that Booking is accepted as being organised plus if the booking is being done by an individual then it is not organised by the club? Obviously a way around this would be for the club to create 'Flying Day' events for every day and then members book into that club organised event (some clubs may have already incorporated that into their rules). As a parallel, if a group of friends send round a WhatsApp message to go play footy in the park, is that accepted as being organised?

Again this is why I seek clarification from the BMFA, until then we all have our own interpretation of the rules. Like you I agree that with the push for 'grassing up' you neighbours Jo Public could report a meeting and then the 'Bill' rock up see that there are more than 6 attending. Highly unlikely I know, but it would be nice to know that I am on solid ground abiding by what the BMFA have said. After all it is the individual who carries the can if the law is being (unwittingly) broken.

[Denis Watkins]

In England Ron, the 6 can still be from multiple households

So if 6s are used in 2 groups of flyers, and one goes home, then 1 can rejoin that group.

At my place we may fly with 10 on a good day

Our method is Hands, Face, Space, not to share equipment, wipe the gate etc etc and

We are On the Booking List, prior to arrival, signed in, time of arrival, and signed out

[Ron Gray]

@Leccvy - forget your chicken and foxes they aren't governed by the Covid rules.

There fact that there are several different interpretations of the rules and definitions is precisely why I would like more guidance from the BMFA especially which part of parts of the Covid guidance we fall under (as agreed / sanctioned by the government).

[Denis Watkins]

Lines 5 and 6 of BMFA guidelines

On arrival and departure ensure you register with the club’s track and trace process.

At the flying site only mix with members of your household or up to 5 people outside your household but stick to social distancing guidelines.

[Ron Gray]

@Dennis - I accept that the 1 can rejoin but another different person joining? mingling?

Totally agree with what you are doing, we do the same albeit on the site that I fly on we haven't had the >6 issue (but we have on another of our sites). Like you we have a booking system, Teamup, and I have just modified that to include an attendance record too so that we can produce Who, Where, When reports for any given period of time.

[Ron Gray]

@Dennis - I know what the BMFA guidelines say but under what Covid guidline rule are they operating, especially when it comes down to what I posted above? I believe it is 2.10 hence my questions about groups and organised events or informal activity.

[Keith Miles 2]

I said before and I say again, that we are over-thinking this.

Absolute clarity and consistency in the messaging will only be achieved by imposing another lockdown which, for numerous reasons, nobody wants.

Covid spreads predominately as a result of close personal contact and via transfer of airborne droplets. The risk is highest indoors. Transfer of droplets via surfaces is relatively low risk.

If everybody acted sensibly and responsibly with that uppermost in mind, there would be no need for “confusing” guidance or rules and no need to raise the various “ifs” and “buts”.

In our case, I believe that the BMFA have already stated that model flying is an individual activity. General club flying is also not an “organised” event nor does booking “slots” or signing in and out make it so.

So, provided that clubs have appropriate measures in place and each and every club member behaves appropriately to minimise risk to themselves and others there should be no need for a surgical examination and questioning of the “rules” including the “rule of six” nor any need to be concerned about being arrested or fined.

It is a sad fact that some people only need a carrot whilst others require a big stick!

[Ron Gray]

With respect Keith, absolute clarity is required when we are talking about a law and if we will be breaking it or not! Your post is a classic example of your interpretation being at odds with others and interpretation is where things go wrong; quite simply it shouldn't be open to interpretation. It would be nice if common sense prevailed but.........................