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Radiomaster

Outrunner

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Outrunner

Outrunner

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Hi guys. After originally asking if it's a good idea to buy Taranis with a 4 in 1 module to run my Hitec and Spektrum receivers I was advised it was an even better idea to get a Radiomaster TX16s, after a bit of convincing I decided on a Radiomaster and despite my initial reservations I'm very impressed.

Also I was in impressed with the service from HobbyRC, good advice and fast delivery (usual disclaimer, I'm nothing to do with HobbyRC).

Today I flashed my TX16x following these instructions Radiomaster updating open Tx

There is a lot more useful information on the same website, I'm still exploring it.

Phil

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Frank Skilbeck

Frank Skilbeck

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I know that DSM2 systems shouldn't be used in the UK, but does it work with DSM2 receivers, I know DSMX receivers will work with DSM2 transmitters but not the other way round. At the moment I've got an old Dx6i DSM2 Tx but if it breaks I might need something to fly my old UMX models.

Also is telemetry supported on all protocols that have native telemetry support, or just some protocols.

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Outrunner

Outrunner

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Trevor, I've not programmed any models yet on my Tx16s but I'm informed that when you program a model then you enter the required protocol, so when selecting a model the correct protocol is selected. I don't yet know if modelmatch is supported.

Frank, DSM2 can be used in the UK but new transmitters cannot be sold. Not sure that leaves the 4 in 1 modules as they support DSM2 and DSMX.... My transmitter is CE marked so I'm taking that as legal to use. I'm led to believe that telemetry is supported in most cases but again I've not yet bound a receiver and tested it. I hope it does..

Phil

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Philip Lewis 3

Philip Lewis 3

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DSM2 can be used in the UK but new transmitters cannot be sold. Not sure that leaves the 4 in 1 modules as they support DSM2 and DSMX

My transmitter is CE marked so I'm taking that as legal to use. I'm led to believe that telemetry is supported in most cases but again I've not yet bound a receiver and tested it. I hope it does..

Phil

Most likely illegal, it's not an add on module it's built in to the TX therefore part of it and if it's illegal to sell a a DSM2 TX then that makes it illegal.

Are you sure that isn't a China Export marking?

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Outrunner

Outrunner

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Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 31/01/2021 12:43:23:

DSM2 can be used in the UK but new transmitters cannot be sold. Not sure that leaves the 4 in 1 modules as they support DSM2 and DSMX

My transmitter is CE marked so I'm taking that as legal to use. I'm led to believe that telemetry is supported in most cases but again I've not yet bound a receiver and tested it. I hope it does..

Phil

Most likely illegal, it's not an add on module it's built in to the TX therefore part of it and if it's illegal to sell a a DSM2 TX then that makes it illegal.

Are you sure that isn't a China Export marking?

No I'm not...

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Phil McCavity

Phil McCavity

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Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 31/01/2021 12:43:23:

DSM2 can be used in the UK but new transmitters cannot be sold. Not sure that leaves the 4 in 1 modules as they support DSM2 and DSMX

My transmitter is CE marked so I'm taking that as legal to use. I'm led to believe that telemetry is supported in most cases but again I've not yet bound a receiver and tested it. I hope it does..

Phil

Most likely illegal, it's not an add on module it's built in to the TX therefore part of it and if it's illegal to sell a a DSM2 TX then that makes it illegal.

Are you sure that isn't a China Export marking?

Not sure it is illegal, would the CEmark still be issued to show it meets international electronic safety requirements but the onus is on the user of the host country not to use the protocol?

HobbyRC is a reputable trader who buy directly from the manufacturer so it can all be considered to be above board. I believe they are a UK distributor.

 

Edited By Phil McCavity on 31/01/2021 13:26:56

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PatMc

PatMc

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Posted by Phil McCavity on 31/01/2021 12:55:01:
Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 31/01/2021 12:43:23:

DSM2 can be used in the UK but new transmitters cannot be sold. Not sure that leaves the 4 in 1 modules as they support DSM2 and DSMX

My transmitter is CE marked so I'm taking that as legal to use. I'm led to believe that telemetry is supported in most cases but again I've not yet bound a receiver and tested it. I hope it does..

Phil

Most likely illegal, it's not an add on module it's built in to the TX therefore part of it and if it's illegal to sell a a DSM2 TX then that makes it illegal.

Are you sure that isn't a China Export marking?

Not sure it is illegal, would the CEmark still be issued to show it meets international electronic safety requirements but the onus is on the user of the host country not to use the protocol?

HobbyRC is a reputable trader who buy directly from the manufacturer so it can all be considered to be above board. I believe they are a UK distributor.

Edited By Phil McCavity on 31/01/2021 13:26:56

As posted previously in another recent thread **LINK**.

So the user has reference back to the retailer, who has reference back to the manufacturer, who by registering these certifications takes ultimate responsibility for the legality.

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MattyB

MattyB

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A short list of resources I have found useful so far...

These non-Radiomaster specific sites should also be useful:

Edited By MattyB on 01/02/2021 14:26:27

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MattyB

MattyB

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Posted by Philip Lewis 3 on 31/01/2021 12:43:23:

DSM2 can be used in the UK but new transmitters cannot be sold. Not sure that leaves the 4 in 1 modules as they support DSM2 and DSMX

Most likely illegal, it's not an add on module it's built in to the TX therefore part of it and if it's illegal to sell a DSM2 TX then that makes it illegal.

One final point from me on this debate as there is some nuance... It isn't illegal to sell DSM2 specifically; it's illegal to sell a transmitting device that is not compliant with the ETSI regs (at the time of writing the version that applies is EN 300 328 v2.2.2 I think), and DSM2 as built by HH did not comply. As a result they withdrew DSM2 TXs from sale in 2015 when the regs changed as they did not want to re-engineer the protocol (they already had DSMX that complied so it didn't make sense to do so).

However, the MPM does not transmit HH's original DSM2, but a reverse engineered version. Since there are multiple ways to comply with the new regs by tweaking duty cycle etc it is perfectly possible that what is transmitted by the MPM when it links to a DSM2 RX is legal. Since it is the reverse engineered version that is being certificated (along with all the others in the MPM) as compliant by the manufacturer, all is well from the perspective of the user. As such there is nothing illegal about buying or operating a Radiomaster TX in the UK or EU.

Do I believe every protocol in the MPM complies with ETSI regs? I somehow doubt it, but since a) the manufacturer has assumed any risk there for purchasers and b) I will only be using Frsky and DSMX only I'm not too worried tbh. YMMV.

Edited By MattyB on 01/02/2021 14:51:54

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Outrunner

Outrunner

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MattyB. Thank you for clarifying the DSM2 issue, very nicely explained. Hopefully that issue can be put to bed now.

Nice comprehensive list of Radiomaster resources, keep them coming.

Has anyone tried the Radiomaster Tx12? Smaller than the average transmitter but a good size for putting in a backpack and going down the park or up a big slope.

Phil.

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MattyB

MattyB

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Final set of resources from me on RCGroups...

Links from the first few posts in the TX16S Owners thread...

Edited By MattyB on 01/02/2021 14:51:10

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MattyB

MattyB

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Posted by Outrunner on 01/02/2021 14:44:13:

Has anyone tried the Radiomaster Tx12? Smaller than the average transmitter but a good size for putting in a backpack and going down the park or up a big slope.

I was tempted, but some quality issues expereinced by Mike Shellim and another poster in the RCGroups thread put me off. Also it is really small, and in the end I jsut wasn't convinced I'd be able to get comfortable with it...

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Mike Blandford

Mike Blandford

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Posted by MattyB on 01/02/2021 14:26:15:

However, the MPM does not transmit HH's original DSM2, but a reverse engineered version. Since there are multiple ways to comply with the new regs by tweaking duty cycle etc it is perfectly possible that what is transmitted by the MPM when it links to a DSM2 RX is legal. Since it is the reverse engineered version that is being certificated (along with all the others in the MPM) as compliant by the manufacturer, all is well from the perspective of the user. As such there is nothing illegal about buying or operating a Radiomaster TX in the UK or EU.

Do I believe every protocol in the MPM complies with ETSI regs? I somehow doubt it, but since a) the manufacturer has assumed any risk there for purchasers and b) I will only be using Frsky and DSMX only I'm not too worried tbh. YMMV.

I thought the reason why DSM2 doesn't comply with the ETSI regs is it doesn't frequency hop, nothing to do with duty cycle etc.
Having just checked the MPM code, as far as I can see the implementation of FrSky D8 protocol does the same as the original FrSky D8, so as FrSky D8 doesn't comply with ETSI, neither does the FrSky D8 protocol on the MPM.
Also, the MPM allows you to select FrSky D16 FCC, that doesn't comply with ETSI regs.

Mike

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MattyB

MattyB

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Posted by Mike Blandford on 01/02/2021 22:33:51:

I thought the reason why DSM2 doesn't comply with the ETSI regs is it doesn't frequency hop, nothing to do with duty cycle etc.

Good catch. It is so long since I have used a non-FHSS protocol I had forgotten DSM2 was a "pick two and stick with em" protocol, apologies.

Posted by Mike Blandford on 01/02/2021 22:33:51:

Having just checked the MPM code, as far as I can see the implementation of FrSky D8 protocol does the same as the original FrSky D8, so as FrSky D8 doesn't comply with ETSI, neither does the FrSky D8 protocol on the MPM.
Also, the MPM allows you to select FrSky D16 FCC, that doesn't comply with ETSI regs.

Hmmmm... It does appear that any CE cert issued for an MPM based radio is questionable at this point. I still don't believe anything would ever come back on the user in the event of an accident (proving the non-compliant firmware contributed to the incident would be incredibly hard), but there is a residual risk there, however small. I guess the regs were never intended to cover Transmitters that had such a wide range of configuration possibilities, hence the problem.

Edited By MattyB on 02/02/2021 12:00:47

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Peter Christy

Peter Christy

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I recall hearing a while back that the EU was trying to ban all radios with programmable firmware. What has become of that proposal, I don't know.

I DO know that Ofcom take a somewhat more enlightened attitude to regulation than the old Post Office did, and part of their remit is to do away with unnecessary red tape!

I've argued before that the EU LBT regulation was totally unnecessary, and that its sole purpose was protectionism. Now that we are no longer in the EU, I wonder if the BMFA (et al) could be persuaded to approach Ofcom with a view to removing these pointless restrictions? After all, it seems to be totally unenforceable, and the sky hasn't fallen in as a result of people still using DSM-2, D8, etc...

There used to be a thing called the Joint Radio Control Users Council, comprising mostly importers, manufacturers, BMFA and any other interested parties. Ofcom usually sent someone along to attend. It was a useful forum for discussing issues like this with the regulator, but seems to have fallen by the wayside. Perhaps time to resurrect it?

--

Pete

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MattyB

MattyB

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Posted by Peter Christy on 02/02/2021 12:19:10:

I recall hearing a while back that the EU was trying to ban all radios with programmable firmware. What has become of that proposal, I don't know.

They weren't trying to ban all programmable firmware, but they did put clauses into law back in 2015 to put the onus on manufacturers to actively prevent non-compliant firmware being loadable on their devices! It is in EU Radio Equipment Directive 2014/53/EU, sometimes dubbed the "EU radio lockdown directive". Of course that now also means it's part of the UK statute book after becoming UK law when we left:

"Article 3:

...

3.   Radio equipment within certain categories or classes shall be so constructed that it complies with the following essential requirements:

...(i) Radio equipment supports certain features in order to ensure that software can only be loaded into the radio equipment where the compliance of the combination of the radio equipment and software has been demonstrated."

The very fact we are still having this debate in 2021 though shows how pointless it is and how little interest the authorities across the EU have in enforcing it.

Part of me agrees with the rest of your post, but I doubt there will be much appetite for changing these regs now we have left. Anything we manufacturer still (in theory) would have to comply in order to be sold in the EU, and it is not as if we will get more access or a better trade deals with other non-EU countries if we do this.

Edited By MattyB on 02/02/2021 13:29:32

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MattyB

MattyB

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Anyway, back to the Radiomaster... I setup my TX16SE last night, and very impressive it is too for the money. The screen is clear and bright and the gimbals very smooth; the throttle ratchet is subtle, but nice once you get used to it. The only real let-downs are the poor quality sliders on the shoulders which feel somewhat baggy and lack a strong detent. I also found the screws on the gimbals are a little soft, so be careful when adjusting them or you might round them out.

Setup went perfectly following along slowly with the videos - I've upgraded OTX many times on other radios so that was straightforward, but it was pleasing that the MPM config was easy too. I had no problem updating it to the latest MPM firmware and "cloning" the RF ID of my Taranis; that meant I did not need to rebind the models I was transferring to it. Clever stuff! My only real doubt is the physical quality of the switches, but tbh they feel no worse than on my X9D, and even if a few wore out after a year or two for £80 I don't think I could really complain!

Edited By MattyB on 02/02/2021 13:31:22

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