David Davis Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Hello everybody. I've has a bit of difficulty getting on to the new site but with David Ashby's help I've finally done it and i have a cautionary tale for us all. Valentines Day dawned sunny and calm, perfect flying weather here in central France. I knew that I would have a few novices to teach this afternoon so I checked the 2200 3S Lipos which I use in a four channel foamy trainer. Three needed charging. I selected one, put it on a 1C charge and left the charger, a Hobby King X 120 to get on with it. At some stage later I noticed that two of the cells appeared to be nearly fully charged but that the third was still quite low. I was busy deep cleaning the kitchen, the dishwasher was on and I put some dirty clothes in the washing machine. I had been stripping wallpaper in the hall and I thought I'd use the steam stripper to attack some grease which had built up on the tiles behind the hob. I'm not sure now when I first detected the smell of burning plastic but I paid it no mind and thought that it was probably something to do with me using all of that electricity. I went for a shave and a shower and changed into some nice clothes to go to Aigurande to buy a bottle of pétillant to celebrate St Valentine's Day. Trish and I are in different countries but we had planned to talk tonight on Messenger and to celebrate St Valentine's Day with two bottles of fizz. I picked up another battery feeling that the first would be charged by now and opened the cellar door to be greeted by Thick Black Smoke! I ran down to the underground garage which is attached to the workshop and opened the connecting door. I was greeted by the sight of thick smoke and several fires blazing away. I had some idea of what must have happened so switched off the power to the sockets and a few buckets of water soon got rid of the fires but my beautiful Big Guff has been reduced to ashes, fourteen months of work literally up in smoke, likewise the WOT 4 XL. That's two I won't be taking back to England. I phoned Trish and told her what had happened. She said that we'd build a new fuselage together and one of my French club mates has also offered his help. I'm not that keen at the moment but just think what would have happened if I had gone to Aigurande. I would not only have lost some models I may have lost the house too. I'll admit that I am not really that interested in electric flight, I much prefer the beat of a well-tuned fourstroke, and in the past I have been quite cavalier in my attitude to charging LiPos often leaving them on a 1C charge before going to bed but I'll be more careful in the future. I'll be getting rid of old LiPos too! I have related this story on other websites and responders have said that I was lucky but by sharing my experience I might have saved someone else's life! The expression "Stay safe!" now has two meanings for me! Pictures of the Big Guff and WOT 4 XL in former times and what's left of them now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Cripes. To put it mildly. 8 lives left... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted February 15, 2021 Author Share Posted February 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, Nigel R said: Cripes. To put it mildly. 8 lives left... Ain't that the truth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Glad you got login sorted David, models can be replaced and no one got hurt, best I've got soz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 I'm new to lipo''s, still waiting for Bmfa safety sheet about them, but the more I hear/find out about them I less I like them, bomb waiting to go off ! And we call it progress ? Glad you ok and the house is still standing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 It is progress, but the advice for a very long time has been to not leave lipos charging unattended. That is one of the key learnings of the hundreds of lipo fires that people have suffered. Also to make sure that you charge the lipos in a fire-retardant enclosure, be it a good quality lipo sack, an ammo box, a bespoke charging case, or an enclosure cobbled together from breeze blocks. Never have anything flammable with reach of the lipo, in the event that it catches fire. We simply can't afford to be complacent or lackadaisical in our approach to charging lipos. Personally I really don't like to charge at home - far preferring to charge at the field - and have always done so. It's only in the past year that I've been doing some charging of small packs at home, since I've started making a few flights at home, since the lockdown I still don't leave the batteries charging unattended, they are in a BatSafe whilst charging and I'm in the workshop for the duration. I'm glad that you were relatively lucky David and only lost a couple of models, sorry to see the damage, but it could have been far worse. I know folks who have lost their entire workshop/garage and everything in it. There's a lesson for everyone there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Flyer Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 Very Sorry to see that ....very bad. For rx batteries I use LIFE batteries rather than lipos . They are said to be “less volatile “ but are still easily capable of causing fires. As the others say it’s so important to keep checking when charging.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Manuel Posted February 15, 2021 Share Posted February 15, 2021 David. May I ask whether the battery was being "balance charged" or just a "normal" charge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted February 15, 2021 Author Share Posted February 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Tim Flyer said: Very Sorry to see that ....very bad. For rx batteries I use LIFE batteries rather than lipos . They are said to be “less volatile “ but are still easily capable of causing fires. As the others say it’s so important to keep checking when charging.... Sorry Tim if I haven't made things clear. The LiPo was being charged for a 4 channel electric powered foamy trainer which I intended to use with a trainee pilot in the afternoon. The models which were destroyed in the fire were NOT on charge neither were they powered by electric motors. They were simply hanging on the wall above the LiPo which was itself resting on a concrete floor. The explosion of the LiPo set fire to the Big Guff which then set fire to the WOT 4 XL. The receiver batteries in both models were NiMhs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted February 15, 2021 Author Share Posted February 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Gary Manuel said: David. May I ask whether the battery was being "balance charged" or just a "normal" charge? Yes it was Gary. I always use the balance lear. I think that one cell was no longer serviceable and it exploded despite my use of the balance lead. In future I will check the voltage of each cell and if one cell is greatly different compared with the others, I'll throw the battery away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Gosh, scary! Glad it wasn't worse..... GG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted February 16, 2021 Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 Thanks again for all of the advice and sympathy. Those of you familiar with my build blog over on RC Groups will know that I had problems to overcome with distorted plans and other difficulties but eventually the Big Guff built into a very straight model which flew well. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...f-This-is-mine I know I'm bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted but I have found a source of ammunition boxes and fire-proof/ fire resistant charging bags which I will order directly. George Stringwell has advised me to store LiPos which are not going to be used immediately at "storage charge" levels in a steel box and to charge LiPos outside whenever the weather is suitable. My charger, a Hobby King X120, has a storage charge facility. I am left with with the problem of where to store the ammunition box. My workshop has a concrete floor but there are model aeroplanes and stocks of balsa wood which would go up nicely in the event of a fire as I know from experience. The underground garage is a possibility but there are piles of firewood stored there and a 1974 Rover. The wine cellar doubles as a paint store and is where I chop my firewood. I have a second garage detached from the house made from concrete with an asbestos roof but that contains about ten gallons, (50 litres) of glow fuel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 David I think the risk of completely spontaneous combustion is minimal - just need to be sure no shirts can occur between the batteries..... Then I think it is just a case of implementing a safe charging/discharging regime. Personally, I'd store them in the detached garage. GG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 A concrete coal bunker outside maybe, or similar...as long as it's rain proof. Still waiting for Bmfa lipo safety info sheet to arrive. What's temperature specs for lipo''s, Max and Min ambient temperature ? Lipo''s are new to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 0 to 50 DegC according to this advice https://www.flyingtech.co.uk/productadvice/lipo-battery-charging-handling-storage-tips#:~:text=LiPo batteries should be charged,heat generation or cell damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Flyer Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Aha David sorry I miss understood that bit! I did read the whole story but must have skimmed that part. You definitely have my sympathy. I can relate another quite scary story that happened at our club last summer during lipo charging. A club member was charging a lipo from his car battery with the bonnet open at the far end of the pits. Luckily one of the members wives pointed out she saw smoke rising . Another member who was about to start his turbine rushed over with his CO2 extinguisher and I joined him after quickly grabbing my dry powder unit from my car. When we reached the car it was almost like the whole thing was about to go up but we quickly managed to douse the flames with the extinguishers. The plastic front spoiler of the car had caught fire and had started to burn rapidly. Luckily the damage was fairly minor . If we had been later the whole car would certainly have been destroyed. The actual lipo had not ignited but it was the charger that had caught fire! I learned a few things from this incident. Firstly regularly change extinguishers...my car dry powder extinguisher was old and it’s performance was terrible so I must remember to regular change it . I also bought a new CO2 extinguisher for home to keep near the charging area ( I also have dry powder l, and foam for oil fires). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Flyer Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 I do think some charging units/ electronics supplied for modelling are of very dubious quality so it’s really important to keep checking while charging. With the UK lockdown and cold weather I have been needing to charge car batteries and I also make sure they are regularly checked whilst charging ( I also make sure they are properly ventilated). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Gorham_ Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 34 minutes ago, Rich Griff said: A concrete coal bunker outside maybe, or similar...as long as it's rain proof. Still waiting for Bmfa lipo safety info sheet to arrive. What's temperature specs for lipo''s, Max and Min ambient temperature ? Lipo''s are new to me... Well I'm not sure why you are waiting for anything from the BMFA about LiPo batteries, as they have the document available to download from their website. It should be viewed with a slightly critical eye as it is 6 years old now. A further tip....Google is your friend to find out everything you want and don't want to know about anything, incluidng vast amounts of info on use of LiPo batteries in models. Battery Safety Booklet - June 2014.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Flyer Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 For lipo storage the detached garage sounds your best option David . I keep mine out of the house too . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted February 16, 2021 Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 I had a doctor's appointment earlier this morning and while I was travelling there a thought struck me. I had renovated the kitchen when I bought the house in 2016. This involved taking out a coal fired stove which I moved to the detached garage. It looks a bit like a small Raeburn. For some reason I've never got round to selling it, but think about it gentlemen, a cast iron stove! An absolutely bomb-proof LiPo storage facility! There's still the problem of 10 gallons of glow fuel in the opposite corner but heigh ho! Pictures to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickw Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 I wouldn't worry too much about storage provide you keep the pack insulation and wires in good condition. The problems only seem to arise when the packs are in use - either charging or discharging. One thing I started doing a few years ago was having a fuse in the charger supply in case the charger developed a fault. A 12v battery feeding into a faulty charger is just as much a fire risk as a Lipo. Dick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Robson Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 David ,you have come up with the answer for me, after my wife passed away I have not used the log burner. I keep my lipos upstairs in the spare room / workshop and no special protection I thought as they come all the way from China in a cardboard box and bubble wrap the only time to take care was charging. After reading of your misfortune I have been wondering what to do with them and you have provided the answer thank you they will literally now go in the fire. I used to work with a David Davis in Telford, he had a vintage MG TA I helped him with, would it be a relation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted February 16, 2021 Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 Sorry Eric, no-one that I know of but it's a common enough surname in Shropshire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 Thanks Frank and Alan, will read the internet one this evening, this phone will not open pdf files, don't know why. The lads phone does read pdf files. Me Saving hard for a pc or laptop, then landline etc.. This aeromodeling is getting expensive now, c/l the answer...just like my teens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted February 16, 2021 Share Posted February 16, 2021 That's terrible! I suppose fire would be something covered by your house insurance? If so get a price for building you a replacement plane from a one of the model building firms in the BMFA mag etc and quote that as the value of the model destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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