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What makes a good kit ?


RICHARD WILLS

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52 minutes ago, Paul Johnson 4 said:

An observation, the majority of the interest in warbirds on this forum (uk based) is for British warbirds.

Most ARTF either foam or balsa bolt together kits. All made in China.

I was just looking at a 1600 Spitfire, bolt together EPO, motor, retracts etc. No doubt will require 'modifications' etc to have a reliable model. €400, plus modifications.

My experience of a company, that shall not be named, of a short kit has been a horror story and money pit, plus lack of after sales support.

So taking this all in, why does a British magazine support Chinese  manufacturing so much ?

 

Even after they pinched all our balsa too!

 

 

 

Presumably because they pay for advertising in the magazine. It would be a very sad day indeed if the magazine only supported British manufacturers. It would also mean going back to free flight, control line or home made electromechanical actuators, since the vast majority of servos and radio gear in general is not made in Britain.

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As a first time builder I can only comment on why I went with Richards kit as my first balsa build. 

1. Lots of coverage on this forum, people building his other kits. 

2. Great reputation and dedicated followers / evangelists

3. Knew I would get help and support on my journey

 

This illustrates how people of my generation now buy. We research then purchase.  Less walk into a shop and see a shiny box but buy what our peers and reviewers are telling us are good. 

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On 20/03/2021 at 14:31, Jonathan S said:

As a first time builder I can only comment on why I went with Richards kit as my first balsa build. 

1. Lots of coverage on this forum, people building his other kits. 

2. Great reputation and dedicated followers / evangelists

3. Knew I would get help and support on my journey

 

This illustrates how people of my generation now buy. We research then purchase.  Less walk into a shop and see a shiny box but buy what our peers and reviewers are telling us are good. 

There is a lot of Logic in Jonathans statement . As good as the Pilot Spitfire was , the chance of a successful flyer was pretty slim . Nobody wants to squander their time or money .  

There is a catch 22 with scale modelling though . For it to survive ( I mean balsa kits)  , more people have to get into it . The obvious place to find those is in the Foam Warbird flyers .  The problem with that , is that a simplistic fighter with a simple build should be the first step into wooden warbird building . But the people we just mentioned are already used to owning and flying a very near scale FMS or Avios warbird and consequently would not view the semi scale wooden model favourably. As a result , this little gang of intrepid builders on here , remain at a constant number and that means that there are not really enough to develop British products , unless you can afford an expensive advertising campaign , which you cant because the acceptable profit margin in the British Market is less than in Europe . After 27 years of making kits , I still regularly get people saying they have never heard of my kits and some live less than 15 mile away . 

I am sure other British Companies share the same experience . 

Anyway , back to what makes a good kit . I guess it depends who you are aiming it at . 

I think the long term builders , would pay more for a Rolls Royce kit . Like any hobby or sport , you always want the experience to be better than the best experience you have already had . 

On that same basis , the Newbie , would get the same buzz from a much simpler kit , as long as it went together with relative ease , but still gave a feeling of satisfaction .   The ARTF gang ?  Well , I think they have a phobia of finishing more than building , so there is a considerable hurdle there to overcome . 

Having said that , they have no real love for wood ( I guess) so maybe a vac formed spitfire fuselage would be ok for them ?

I'dont think you chaps would like that though . 

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I think you’re correct Richard, there are the builder’s kits, balsa, formers and ribs then there are the simpler builds, veneered foam components for the major parts; just what you have done with the Spitfire and P51 and the LA-7 and BF110. But there is a distinct lack of awareness of your products!

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I believe one of the issues is the definition of a good kit. That is dependent on if the individual has time to build or desire to build. There does seem to be a large percentage of flyers versus builder/flyers. Even the ARTF no time to build, only time/desire to fly look to differing manufacturer's as their favourite. Most, once they have seen a well built model often look at their EPO model alongside and feel a sense of disappointment, I know I did. The problem also comes from the number of self build kits with minimal materials, instructions, to a degree, and a host of further parts required to complete it. It's at this point most shrug their shoulders and tolerate what they have but still desire that ultimate self built model.

I believe that a kit that has all the parts required AND a glossy manual with not only how to build the kit but also how to finish the build with info on things like step by step information about panelling, weathering and detailing. 

A lot of work, but I believe it can entice a few more ARTF'ers to become builder/flyers.

I mean we're bringing Jonathan along... it may take him awhile but he's made the first steps...

 

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I don't think that folks who buy and fly high quality ARTFs and foamies look at kit build models and then back at their foamies with disappointment. I know that I don't - I just see them as different means to producing a good looking, well sorted scale model. Everyone has to weigh up the time and skills that they have available and what interests them in the hobby.

 

I agree that they way to go if one wishes to encourage ARTF builders into taking up kit building is by producing comprehensive, well sorted kits, with excellent manuals, plans, accessories and presentation - that's a given, the alternative of a plain brown cardboard box with a few parts sheets and a partial plan pack isn't going to do the job.

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I think we must encourage all new comers without doubt . What they don't see is that we didnt jump in at the deep end as they now do . I cut my teeth (what a strange expression ) on fun fighters and even my own design fighters without undercarriage . That eliminates a lot of weight and makes landings no harder than bringing a glider in . The build time is way quicker too . The negative side is that generally unless mode 1 like me , you will need a buddy to hand launch . 

Tony Nijhuis's  46" Spitfire is probably ideal or one of Darrens funfighters . 

Trouble is , the newcomer looks at a fully kitted out Dynam Spitfire and says "why land on my belly ?" 

Again , the wickedly advanced ARTF foam fighters have caused a subtle problem . 

The whole thing follows right through . We used to build a wooden trainer , thereby learning basic wood skills . Then a low wing sportster with a few more features like bolt on wings . Finally a fighter with or without undercarriage and flaps .

This also has a knock on in another way for kits like mine . 

When I were a lad , I bought a Yamaha FS1e moped at sixteen ,and so did all my mates . 75% of those bought another Yamaha (a 250 ) when they got to seventeen .  Point being , if the first one worked for you , more likely to stick to the format .(and company ) . 

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3 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

I don't think that folks who buy and fly high quality ARTFs and foamies look at kit build models and then back at their foamies with disappointment. I know that I don't - I just see them as different means to producing a good looking, well sorted scale model. Everyone has to weigh up the time and skills that they have available and what interests them in the hobby.

 

I think this is true Leccy, but I am not sure that many ARTF flyers are aware of how rewarding building and finishing can be; they just see it as a mountain to climb because they perceive it as out of their skillset. I could be wrong of course. A kit that makes the whole process seem more accessible would no doubt help open the potential market a bit more. I like the idea of a 'magazine' of techniques and how-tos that Paul suggests. Let's face it, if the instructions are detailed and the build is logical, there's no reason why a first time builder cannot complete a scale model to a decent standard. I think Jonathan is well on the way to proving that.

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The sticking to what you know i think goes back to the evangelists/ you and your mates have one,  you know it's good, your mate gets the next model up says it's good so you buy one.  

 

Will I buy another foam model yes, as the choice is good and lots of other people have them and thus I can read reviews on is it worth the money etc.  That said having started a WR warbird and am massively enjoying its construction would I build another one, most definitely (maybe even after the maiden if my flying skills not significantly better than my building ?). 

Will it take me ages to build and will I be 100x more nervous when I fly it yes of course but it's mine and thus it is special.  

 

So what makes a good kit, for me as a novice knowing you have support and are not alone, knowing there is someone who will answer the stupid questions the experienced guys know automatically like how to hinge a flap or sheet a wing.  For me that is what makes a good kit + it has to have guns or it is just a target..... 

 

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They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that certainly applies to model aeroplanes and their kits. What may seem like an excellent construction method to one builder could be considered sacrilege by another !

Back in the day (aye lad) we learnt how to build model aeroplanes because we had to in order to fly.

Now people learn how to build because they want to.  

That plus the many different methods and materials available can make it difficult for the kit manufacturers to know what to produce (from a profitability point of view).

Although I am probably the same generation as Richard (or maybe older) I fully understand what Jonathon is saying and he is totally correct. Model building from kits (and plans) needs to be more visible. Not necessarily higher profile, but more in depth. If I may take Richard's company as an example (there is no intention to be critical about any particular manufacturer, most fall into the same category, but Richard is very open-minded !).

 

The website is informative, but...

It appears to be promoting just one kit. You have to dig deeper immediately, which people don't necessarily do.

You need pictures, lots of them. Highly complementary of your products, from all different angles.

Preferably with happy builders in the shot. Possibly showing different colour schemes.

Build logs shouldn't be 3rd party, from other websites. they need to be done by the company (or appear to be).

You need to "talk" to the viewer about your kits and point them in the right direction (like the old fashioned model shop owners).

You have to consider the person viewing to be involved in the experience of the website.

Give them an idea as to the complexity, or ease of the build and get them to ask themselves questions. Maybe suggest they contact you direct to discuss their requirements.

You need a clear pricing structure showing what is (and isn't) in the kit. This needs keeping up to date (not easy I know).

 

The problem is we are modellers and kit producers not salesmen (sorry, sales persons).

 

Edited by kevin b
Stupidity on my part !
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I am just building a DB Sport and scale kit, and what I am finding distressing is that there is no detailed plan. Yes there is a plan, but no way of finding out what part 151 is. The plan does not include the parts outline. I can understand why this is, I presume they don't want you to build another from the same plan? Well it made parts identification hard for me, and would make repairs difficult.

 

The instructions are also vague, now glue part 122,134 and 150 etc.... A proper build guide would be far better and give the novice a fighting chance.

 

The alternative is to give a model to somebody that you know will build and blog said build on forums such as this one. 

 

I think you do a splendid job Richard, and its because you are in touch with your customers, and you listen. Alas builders are a diminishing breed so your market is never going to be as it was in the 60's and 70's sadly.

 

I remember going to a model show and seeing aircraft we could buy being flown and thinking I will get one of those, sadly a show now will be with models of a third scale and larger, miles from grass roots modelling. And no way attainable by the majority of modellers.

 

I have just checked FB as many companies have an active presence on FB, this being where many small kit manufacturers and builders have started showing there wares. Could you try and get more activity on social media to raise awareness?

 

One final thought, have you seen how sought after the old Flair Scout series kits are? I bet there would be a market for a more modern, lighter  version of the scouts ?

 

cheers

Danny

Edited by Danny Fenton
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The Flair scouts would also qualify for warbirds, but how many would sell? It seems the thing now to itemise something as vintage and rare and people will pay silly money for it when in the first time around they were not that good anyway. it's like nostalgia with old cars they were crude and unreliable compared to the later models but carry many fond memories.

Danny I agree with what you say about instructions, I bought a Complete a Pac kit at a swap meet and there was a lot of small parts cut and numbered but the numbers were not on the plan I built it because I knew how to as I had built some of theirs before just from the plan . A novice would have great difficulty with it.

Eric.

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Eric, 

Interesting, I would love a se5 of about 50 -60 inches.  If people are willing to pay 250 quid for old balsa, faded plans then why not 250 for new balsa, modern construction method and lazer cut bits.  The super flying model version looks horrible. 

 

I have often wondered why no one has brought out a modern set of scouts as the old flair ones seem to sell well on ebay. 

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IIRC the Flair Scouts were always good steady sellers, but their popularity waned, such that, just before Flair stopped making them the price in the shops dipped a bit. Since they were discontinued the price on eBay started to rise and they regularly sell in excess of £200 for an unstarted kit. I also recall that in some clubs, just like the Wot-4 there were plans or templates circulating and many knock-off examples were made. For the Puppeteer I've seen several examples with an extended nose, supposedly to offset the need for excessive nose ballast.

 

A new set of WWI scouts, optimised for minimal rigging at the field could find a market. I've seen a nice mod which split the fuselage behind the traiilng edge, letting the wings stay fully rigged for transport. I'm seriously considering copying that for my own Puppeteer, The light loading is also ideal for a brushless outrunner for a very workable WWI warbird.

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1 hour ago, Phil McCavity said:

I would certainly like to see a WW1 series of warbirds from Richard, maybe even a quick build trainer circulated by the 'evangelists' to help encourage the newcomer into building and help highlight the company a bit more.

Phil, this is pretty much what I have started with. Richard's foam wing kits. I'm pretty experienced as a builder, and love building but don't see foam wings or panels as anything other than another build medium. What i got was both an enjoyable build, but also a great introduction into finishing and operating a warbird without the huge amount of personal investment that makes flying the things off-putting.

 

I think that experienced builders want different things from new builders, which presents Richard with difficult choices. Unsold stock is costly, so he'll need to know the kits will sell; who do you therefore target? The guys that want a fully built up 'bird, or the newbies that need a simpler construction? Whilst we would all love the luxury of being able to choose from 2 versions of 10 different models, that is a big and risky investment if they don't sell.

 

I am however, definitely an evangelist. Despite many years of building, I have learned so much from building the WR kits, and I have really been bitten by the warbird bug. My Tempest below, for no apparent reason!

 

 

Tempest 210720-2.jpg

Tempest 4 290920.jpg

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I am enjoying reading this thread, for various reasons. One of which is having been in the business of manufacturing kits for a short while (Airsail).

With regards to the Flair kits it is difficult to ascertain if they are still available. Quite a few manufacturers (Not me) have tried in vain to purchase the rights for these models.

It appears that there were two people involved in them. The man who owned the company and the man who produced the kits (he was employed). The company moved out of its premises last year I believe and the stock was sold on ebay (I bought some). As far as I am aware the employee was still of a mind to produce kits and had the equipment to do so. The company had been used by the owner to promote another side of his business, rather than be a profitable model kit manufacturer. I don't know the reasons why he will not sell the rights to the Flair kits, but I agree that they would still be popular with builders.

As a matter of interest I have been watching the prices of these kits which can vary up to £100.00 for the same model untouched in its box.

If I wasn't busy with my current Marutaka project I might have been interested in developing something similar. I don't want to be a kit manufacturer again, but do enjoy the design and development aspect.

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Thanks for that Kevin . I have also heard similar tales of Flair .  I think the good people on this thread would be interested to hear your candid views on the demise of the once prolific kit manufacturing cottage industry in this country . 

It is only when we analyse the demise that we can see if there is a way forward for the future . 

The one thing that we all share here is the love of building , so to have that removed entirely would be unthinkable . 

BTW Nice Chippy Kevin .?

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Yep, I reckon it's an interesting thread as well, built and owned plenty of the Flair range, used to build Magnatillas for a model shop, sold quicker than I could make them. Never heard of Richards kits before I joined this forum, would I buy one ? I would buy one pronto if he did one I wanted.

Echo what Phil said, any mileage in a trainer or low wing trainer ? Warbirds may be your passion but business is business. The market is limited, how do you increase that market ? More variety or increase customer base ?

 

Chriss Foss stuff, they're big sellers, ( I believe) why's that then ?

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