Stabilisers. Are they helpful in learning how to fly? What is the opinion of instructors and trainees?

[David Davis]

I do a fair bit of instructing on a buddy box but I have no experience of flying a trainer equipped with a stabiliser.

 

I'd like to know of your experience of them, positive or negative, instructor or trainee.

 

If you have found them useful which stabiliser did you use in which model?

[Frank Skilbeck]

We have had a couple beginners with stabilised models, bit of a mixed experience, the ones that provide self levelling and limit the bank and pitch etc can lead to the beginners developing poor muscle memory and when the "crutch" is taken away they are not much forward than somebody starting on a buddy box. We had one new member that was flying without a buddy box and in safe mode he was quite competent, but the when he switched out then it was only a matter of when the model went out of control, this resulted in a couple of crashes when he couldn't find the safe switch fast enough. They also develop a bit too much confidence as even having the safe function didn't prevent flying into trees, despite the instructor telling him when to turn and in which direction.

 

The dampening ones though can be quite useful as all they do if dampen out the worst of the wind effects, but the pilot still has to fly the model, rather than just guide it around.

 

Note to take a BMFA A achievement certificate then stablisers are not permitted.

[Peter Christy]

I regard them as akin to the stabiliser wheels on kiddies bikes, or the training hoops used on helicopters - OK for initial confidence building, but something to be dispensed with as soon as possible!

 

What I find more worrying is the number of experienced flyers fitting them to models that don't actually need them! I can understand them being fitted to a scale model, where aerodynamics dictate that they will be unstable without deviations from scale, but why fit one to (say) a thermal soarer or other "sports" aircraft?

 

Perhaps I'm old fashioned (who said "YES"! ? ), but I want to FLY my models, not tell a computer how to fly them...!

 

--

Pete

 

[Dad_flyer]

A related question is the suitability of inherently stable models. Learning over the last couple of years I have not had stabilisation, but I have had old-style high dihedral models, from early RC when it was not precise or reliable. Rather like a beginner pilot. They are pretty self leveling. If you are not too far off level, or not too low they will recover if you let go of the sticks. I switch off the stabiliser by using a different model. I think it does manage to give the opportunity to see your mistakes or over control without too many crashes.

Whether it would have been better to do it a different way is not for me to say.

[Jon H]

Not a fan. a correctly set up trainer model should be more than stable enough and with the right rates should not be so vicious the student just flips it on its back. 

 

The other issue is that you make the student learn twice by using a stabiliser as they might do ok with it on, but then have to learn all over again with it off. Many of the students i taught who had come, self taught, using stab equipped models really struggled when it came to takeoff and landing on their new non equipped models as they had come to rely on the stab system to keep things under control. It also gave them a false sense of their ability and lead them to buy models that were too advanced too early leading to a number of crashes. 

 

No doubt some will disagree, but in my experience the best trainer is a classic 40-46 size model. It can be electrocuted these days if you want, my choice would be a 50 4 stroke using a 13x5 prop, but electric would be fine. Its the size and weight of the model that is important. Trying to learn with a foamy is hopeless as the models just dont stall and are useless if you ever want to fly anything else. 

[Chris Walby]

Hi,

There is a lengthy post somewhere on this subject, I am sure someone can find it and post the link.

IMHO they have there uses, but fall into two main categories

Self levelling – sorry, don’t like them and teaches the novice incorrect inputs…anything you have to hold the stick in the corner just to maintain a constant bank angle is of no help in my book.

Stabilization – could be a good idea, if used in an appropriate way and as Dad-flyer says most trainers are high wing and with dihedral so sort of self level anyway so why need a stabilizer?

Now comes a couple of opportunities, firstly British weather and teaching/learning in “typical” windy conditions and stabilization can be really helpful as it allows more times you can fly which is a good thing. Most likely be less busy at the field and the student doesn’t get locked in to only fly when its calm mind set.

The other is to use a model that is a great flyer but not very stable, I had a Cougar 2000 and E-flite Carbon Yak….and on very low rates are great flyers…fly slow to quite fast, very good power to weight ratio and on high rates (instructor) allows you to get it out of trouble, only issue is they are a bit skitty in windy conditions and this is where the stabilizer smooths it all out nicely. If its not windy switch it off.

PS – Stabilizers have limitations on some models and if you fly too slow…the stabilizer won’t save you…

[Jonathan M]

41 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Not a fan. a correctly set up trainer model should be more than stable enough and with the right rates should not be so vicious the student just flips it on its back. 

 

The other issue is that you make the student learn twice by using a stabiliser as they might do ok with it on, but then have to learn all over again with it off. Many of the students I taught who had come, self taught, using stab equipped models really struggled when it came to takeoff and landing on their new non equipped models as they had come to rely on the stab system to keep things under control. It also gave them a false sense of their ability and lead them to buy models that were too advanced too early leading to a number of crashes. 

 

No doubt some will disagree, but in my experience the best trainer is a classic 40-46 size model. It can be electrocuted these days if you want, my choice would be a 50 4 stroke using a 13x5 prop, but electric would be fine. It's the size and weight of the model that is important. Trying to learn with a foamy is hopeless as the models just don't stall and are useless if you ever want to fly anything else. 

 

I couldn't agree more with all of this (especially the last bit of course!).

 

Having said that, the one thing a stabilised-equipped trainer might be helpful with is in giving a complete beginner some initial-only basic experience of positioning the model (circuit legs, lines and heights, the effect of wind drifting the model, orientation, the use of ground-marks as turning points, etc).  However a competent instructor on a buddy-box talking the student through these things as they go is surely much preferable.  And, ultimately, in terms of a student learning to actually fly the model it can only, as Jon points out, be counter-productive.

 

Imagine trying to learn to drive in a car which won't turn exactly as you want it to?!

[Chris Walby]

My trainee loves his and the best bit...sounds nice as well....now just need to get my engine back at some point!

 

 

 

 

 

PS No stabilizer required

[Clarence Ragland]

The trick is to show the student how to correctly move the elevator/aileron lever very slowly with not much defection in any direction and then allow the properly trimmed out trainer to fly essentially on it's own.  Now I can do that on my own as an instructor, but I showed how it can be done with two instructors. What I mean is, there is the student hooked up to a buddy-box and instructor. There is another instructor between student and instructor. The second instructor monitors and reaches in to show the student how to precisely move the stick. I've noticed that with or without the use of S.A.F.E., instructors tend to have the trainer flying way too fast. I have the trainer flying at a click or two past stall speed, at a speed that is more comfortable to the beginner. I say, "let the plane fly for say 10 seconds, more or less, and then control it."

Edited April 1, 2021 by Clarence Ragland

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Some struggle to fly for a whole variety of reasons, if stabilizers help put a smile on someones chops, why not.

[Jon H]

2 hours ago, Clarence Ragland said:

The trick is to show the student how to correctly move the elevator/aileron lever very slowly with not much defection in any direction and then allow the properly trimmed out trainer to fly essentially on it's own.  Now I can do that on my own as an instructor, but I showed how it can be done with two instructors. What I mean is, there is the student hooked up to a buddy-box and instructor. There is another instructor between student and instructor. The second instructor monitors and reaches in to show the student how to precisely move the stick. I've noticed that with or without the use of S.A.F.E., instructors tend to have the trainer flying way too fast. I have the trainer flying at a click or two past stall speed, at a speed that is more comfortable to the beginner. I say, "let the plane fly for say 10 seconds, more or less, and then control it."

 

I agree with most of this. 

 

Speed, yep, i am always telling my students to slow down. It normally happens when we have windy days and they need to add power for the headwind leg...they just forget to take off off when downwind and then add more next time round. Training models should be trimmed for a nice slow speed as this helps in a few ways. One, the model isnt pylon racing so the student has more time, controls are not as vicious, and everything is more relaxed. Excessive speed is noticed right away as a pitch up, so thats a good flag for them, and when they 'graduate' to flying faster the model will be out of trim...so teach them to trim it. 

 

The dual instructor idea is a new one on me i have to say. if i want to demonstrate that the model can be left alone for extended periods of time i tend to place the tx in the palm of my hand and hold it out so the student can clearly see i am not touching anything. When it comes time for a trying to show how small stick movement should be i will just get him/her to watch an example that i will fly twice. First time they watch the model, 2nd time they watch the sticks. 

 

Although its another argument entirely, i also teach with no expo. This is to teach accurate stick movement, and because it gives a more direct visual feedback and prevents over control. By that i mean, they move the stick and the model moves, there is no soggy delay causing them to move the stick more and over control as they ride up the expo curve. If the rates are set correctly you just dont need any expo. 

[Jon H]

4 minutes ago, john stones 1 Moderator said:

Some struggle to fly for a whole variety of reasons, if stabilizers help put a smile on someones chops, why not.

 

If someone has real trouble and 'normal' flying would be impossible due to a disability or whatever then absolutely. Specific cases need to be taken on their own but i would consider stabs a last resort. 

[Clarence Ragland]

I've trained vision challenged people to fly. One thing I have all students do is not look at the trainer in flight and only look at their thumb on top of the elevator/aileron stick. I have them do this for a few minutes in some cases, but it usually only takes around a minute or two to get my point across. This drill works wonders as they get to see that their thumb moving the sticks is doing. They get to feel and see at the same time how much to move the sticks. One newbie came with an airplane that he built. He was legally blind and he could see what he was doing more or less while he was building, but couldn't see any further than 10 feet away. The other club instructors said they could help by checking his creation, fix whatever needed adjusting and trim out his trainer, but because he was vision impaired, they couldn't help him fly.

 

I told his wife, who drove him to the field, that I could hand him the transmitter and help him learn to fly. Everyone, even the guy's wife looked at me like I was insane. I got the plane in the air and explained what he should do. He too was quite bewildered, but very happy that he might be able to fly his plane. I told him to put his thumb on top of the elevator/aileron lever and to not move the stick. We flew an entire tank of fuel and he was happier than a pig in you know what. I even assisted him with a landing.

Have you ever heard of the lady who had never flown a full scale plane before and then land with assistance from the control tower?

[Simon Chaddock]

It could be said that do you ever learn to fly?

in reality you just keep adding to the learning by experience and by the time you think you have acquired all the there is to learn age starts to catch up with you and then you have to start to learn to compensate for it!

I do rather agree with John S.

Not all people learn at the same rate, start at the same point or ever achieve the same level of skill.

If a gyro can give someone the confidence to start the learning process then why not.

[Mike Blandford]

When I tried flying with self-level on (FrSky S6R) I found it very odd. I now have it set up using a 3-position switch.

First position is disabled.

Second position is "stab" mode, for use in windy/gusty conditions.

Third position is self level, but only if both the ELE and AIL sticks are centred (within 2% of centre output). otherwise it is "stab" mode.

This way you may have the self level function, but as soon as apply a control it gets turned off. Not quite the same no self level, but nearly!

 

Mike

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, Simon Chaddock said:

It could be said that do you ever learn to fly?

in reality you just keep adding to the learning by experience and by the time you think you have acquired all the there is to learn age starts to catch up with you and then you have to start to learn to compensate for it!

I do rather agree with John S.

Not all people learn at the same rate, start at the same point or ever achieve the same level of skill.

If a gyro can give someone the confidence to start the learning process then why not.

 

I agree that you never truly finish learning to fly, and to be honest that is the best way to look at it. You can always do better and there is always something to learn. 

 

This again is why i am not a fan of making it artificially easy to learn to fly. Some aspects of the hobby are not easy, but you cant cheat. Each skill you learn opens new doors so if you skip things you might never get to do certain things, at least not to the best they could be done. Also if you cheat where is the sense of achievement? I had a student who cursed me for disabling his ailerons and making him fly left stick rudder only. But when he was able to nail a nice landing in a gusty cross wind he understood why i did it. he had seen many other 'better' pilots come a cropper but he was able to get it down. He was understandably pleased with himself and why not? 

 

Its also not important what level a trainee with eventually reach. I taught an older chap to fly and given his age and everything else safely flying something like a simple trailer, a junior 60, puper cub etc was all he was ever going to be able to do and even then there was going to be a rate of attrition. He really struggled to learn to fly, and in truth we never really finished before he was too unwell to fly any more, but he was one of the regulars, always there, always involved, always eager to learn. Crashes really angered him, mostly because he knew what he did wrong, but equally successes really meant something and a weekend with no bent undercarriages or broken props was a job really well done and something to be proud of. His first solo flight gained him a round of applause as everyone knew what those few wobbly circuits meant. 

 

If he had been babysat by electronics, all of that would have been gone. It might have been easier and with fewer broken models, but it would not have been the same. 

 

As for confidence. You cannot give someone confidence. They only gain confidence by overcoming difficulties and they cant do that if everything is easy. 

 

 

 

[Jonathan M]

5 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Although its another argument entirely, i also teach with no expo. This is to teach accurate stick movement, and because it gives a more direct visual feedback and prevents over control. By that i mean, they move the stick and the model moves, there is no soggy delay causing them to move the stick more and over control as they ride up the expo curve. If the rates are set correctly you just dont need any expo. 

 

I have sympathy with this idea - in fact when I was learning with a Riot I had almost no expo - but surely you need a little, say 10%, just to iron out the geometrical disadvantage of the servo arm as it rotates beyond its neutral 90º position?

 

 

[Gary Manuel]

15 minutes ago, Jonathan M said:

 

I have sympathy with this idea - in fact when I was learning with a Riot I had almost no expo - but surely you need a little, say 10%, just to iron out the geometrical disadvantage of the servo arm as it rotates beyond its neutral 90º position?

 

 

You are right in what you are saying about some expo being required to give a truly linear feel, due to the servo geometry. I think though, that it's a good idea to teach newcomers to fly without expo. At the early stages, what you are trying to teach is that "less is more". The tiny movements around the centre of the sticks are the most important areas, so don't desensitise this area. I'm effectively saying, don't make life too easy for them. Expo can be introduced later, once they have a feel for what it's doing.  

 

On a similar note, I believe that the trainee needs to learn about making tiny control inputs if / when required. Stabilisation is contrary to this, so I would say that trainees should learn to fly without it.

 

A reasonably stable high wing model, a buddy box and a patient instructor are all that is required.

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, Jonathan M said:

 

I have sympathy with this idea - in fact when I was learning with a Riot I had almost no expo - but surely you need a little, say 10%, just to iron out the geometrical disadvantage of the servo arm as it rotates beyond its neutral 90º position?

 

 

 

 

you want to keep the geometric disadvantage as it means you get less movement proportionally as you pull. handy for fine adjustment close to stall. this all assumes the arms are set so this matters of course. 

 

in any case, im not an expo fan full stop. its very useful in the right context, but most use it before they get their rates right and then it can make models almost unflyable. 

[Andy48]

At the moment I can buy  a FrSky Access stabilised receiver cheaper than a normal receiver, so why not? For the beginner I can control whether to have the stabiliser on or off and also adjust the gain from the transmitter at any time during the flight. We have one training night a week and sometimes it is beneficial to have stabilisation when it is gusty rather than not fly at all.

 

Best of both worlds IMO.

 

 

[Andy48]

2 hours ago, Jonathan M said:

 

I have sympathy with this idea - in fact when I was learning with a Riot I had almost no expo - but surely you need a little, say 10%, just to iron out the geometrical disadvantage of the servo arm as it rotates beyond its neutral 90º position?

 

 

In reality if you keep the servo movement to 30 degrees either side of neutral, the movement is a close approximation of linear:

 

[Gary Manuel]

24 minutes ago, Andy48 said:

In reality if you keep the servo movement to 30 degrees either side of neutral, the movement is a close approximation of linear:

 

But restricting the servo movement to 30 degrees is wasting a huge amount of mechanical advantage. Much better to use the full movement and gear it down by using a hole in the servo arm closer to the centre. 

 

Yes, that's where it becomes non linear, but also the holding torque becomes greater.

 

However, if you are saying that when used within 30 degrees of the centre (as you would normally expect of a beginner), then yes it's almost linear - hence expo not needed.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Gary Manuel

[Jonathan M]

43 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

in any case, im not an expo fan full stop. its very useful in the right context, but most use it before they get their rates right and then it can make models almost unflyable. 

 

I get that.  The question of how much expo is usually dismissed as "personal preference" but I think it deserves a more rational approach depending on type and purpose of model rather than piloting style (perhaps a separate thread in its own right?).

 

I gradually moved from minimal expo to moderate and also serious amounts - depending on the model and job in hand:

 

On my more traditional models with narrow control surfaces and modest maximum travels (e.g. Middle Phase, Boomerang) ailerons are at a modest 15-20% expo and elevator at 20-30%, but modern lightweight things with big surfaces and greater normal travels have to be flown with much higher expo, e.g. the foam Ahi aerobatic soarer has 30% on ailerons and 50% on elevator, and the drawings for the Quark 2m slow aerobatic sloper advise 60% on ailerons and rudder!

 

Where it comes to thermal soaring, the more expo I put on elevator the less precious height I wasted by constantly falling out the sky!

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I was gonna leave it coz threads drifting off topic, but if you mask clumsy handling with expo, how do you develop a feel and better handling ? If you put big surface movements on, and dumb it down with expo, how do you develop knowledge on setting up ? Where's your skill base on setting up and more refined handling, which you'll need to fly more difficult models in the future ? It's side stepping an important part of the learning process for me.

[Chris Walby]

Back to the stabilizer, so its quite windy with frequent gusty spells over our bordering wood that induces random pitch and roll on almost every circuit, the wind is then turbulent across the field at ground level and spilling over the hedge line at the start of the runway.

 

Not many people are flying as its hard work and your trainee turns up all eager to learn.

 

Do you stand around talking and not bother flying, no you get the model out and do all the usual checks. Get out and do some flying and ok the wind is trying to push the model in all kinds of directions but the stab just keeps it on track...which ever  way the pilot is sending it. Then once the trainee is really getting the hang we can have a go with the stab off, wow that's a handful and that's ok we can put the stab back on and get it back down in one piece.

 

Its a tool that can be used to your benefit, if you want..or just miss another opportunity too fly.