Stabilisers. Are they helpful in learning how to fly? What is the opinion of instructors and trainees?

[Denis Watkins]

? Chris, that's it in a nutshell.

[Frank Skilbeck]

9 hours ago, Andy48 said:

In reality if you keep the servo movement to 30 degrees either side of neutral, the movement is a close approximation of linear:

 

Yep, but you also have to take into account that the control surface is converting a linear motion (the actuating rod/cable) into a rotation, obviously if the lengths of the arms at each end are different then you will get differential rotation. But at the control surface end as the control surface rotates away from the centre then the rate of rotation increases for a given linear action on the control arm.

 

Back to stabilisers, the simple dampening ones can make lightweight models less affected by wind gusts, but the pilot still has to control the model, it's just that it's like wind gusts are dampened down. But the self levelling ones do give a very false flying feel.

[GrumpyGnome]

Are we talking about stabilizing (e.g. AS3X) or attitude limiting (like SAFE)?

 

If the former, then yes, I think it helps as it increases air time.  

 

I don't like attitude limiting as it sort of makes someone learn to fly multiple times. If they start with 'beginner mode' they can shove the sticks to the corners and the aircraft behaves nicely.  They believe they can fly.  Then turn off the beginner mode and they have to pretty much start learning again, but this time there is also an amount of 'unlearning' to do......

 

Philosophically, I don't agree with attitude limiting as it allows companies to market fast/heavy aircraft to complete beginners who may well be tempted to fly them in unsuitable places, and in a potentially unsafe manner.

 

As regards expo, I prefer not to use it (although I do have some in a couple of small foamy warbirds).  I also try to discourage excessive amounts in beginners. I have seen people add more and more to try and allow them to fly a model that is beyond their current skill level. 

 

Just an opinion of course. Others have different opinions, and may disagree, which is great! Wouldn't life be boring (and this forum much smaller) if we all agreed all the time?

 

GG 

 

P.S. I have never taught anyone formally, or completely from scratch but have helped several improve their skills....

[Matt Carlton]

Personally I think there is a tendancy to fly to the stabiliser in as much as they tend to give a false impression of progress. 

 

Otherwise its a bit like learning to drive an automatic car and being told that your gear changes and selection are very good. 

 

 

[Jon H]

10 hours ago, john stones 1 Moderator said:

I was gonna leave it coz threads drifting off topic, but if you mask clumsy handling with expo, how do you develop a feel and better handling ? If you put big surface movements on, and dumb it down with expo, how do you develop knowledge on setting up ? Where's your skill base on setting up and more refined handling, which you'll need to fly more difficult models in the future ? It's side stepping an important part of the learning process for me.

 

Absolutely spot on. 

 

Chris, regarding your windy day example i would tell the student we are going up and we would just fly the day as normal. Without the stab windy days are brilliant for teaching as there isnt time for the student to think, they have to react instinctively, and this is often a good thing as many students over think and then do nothing/the wrong thing. Once they start to see their reactions are instinctive their confidence improves rapidly. Its also really good for circuit planning as they know about the turbulent area's and i leave them to make choices about how to avoid them by thinking ahead of the model. its also general prep for flying on days that are not flat calm. Depending on the ability of the student at the time, i may do all the takeoff/landing so we dont break anything, or i may only do that for the first flight and then give them the choice. If they decide they want to try a takeoff in the howling gale, we brief it heavily, i may even fly a few examples, and then i let them try. Same thing with landing. There is an element of risk, but its their risk, they choose to take it and they didnt have to. I could have flown all the takeoff's but they decided they wanted to give it a go. If the model gets bent, sure its unfortunate but its still a learning opportunity. IF they get it right, then as before we have a real sense of achievement and it means that windy days are one less thing to fear. 

 

If you fly with the stab on, and the student gets used to that, they will be totally lost when flying a model later down the line and there is no stab to hold their hands. You just dont learn anything when its easy. 

 

The question im keen to hear answers on is this. What is the primary goal of training on a given day? Further their efforts to learn to fly long term, or, to make life easy so they have a good time on the day? To me these two are almost mutually exclusive as you cant learn to fly if you never get the chance because we are trying to make things artificially easy. 

 

 

[Peter Christy]

A couple of days ago I visited our local flying site with a fellow member who would still classify himself as a "learner". He has been flying a Bixler - a model a lot of people recommend as a trainer - but was complaining that he didn't seem to be progressing.

 

Amongst my collection of models is a Veron Robot (early 60's trainer). I've been using it with a "giga-ised" reed transmitter to get my hand back in, but for the day, I bound it to my Taranis. The Robot was originally designed for single-channel, but many people added elevators and throttle. Mine has these added features, and is powered by an elderly OS 15 (2.5cc).

 

It takes off fairly smartly, and once at altitude, I throttled it back to about half throttle, and set the rates to about 60% before handing the box to my "pupil". With a little bit of verbal guidance, he managed 3 or 4 circuits without any physical intervention on my part. I only had to take over to increase the throttle slightly, as it was slowly losing height. Once back up to altitude, and with a bit more power, he managed several more circuits on his own, again, with minimal input from me!

 

After the flight he confided that he was amazed at how easy it was to fly, and how much of a confidence boost it had been for him.

 

NO stabilisers, no buddy box - just a properly designed model for the purpose!

 

I still maintain that there is not currently a model on the market that can compete with the Veron Robot or KeilKraft Mini-Super as a basic trainer.

 

--

Pete

 

[Jon H]

My trainer of choice was always the HMM Moonraker. Nice to fly, robust, stable but also aerobatic if you wanted. Great model. 

[Braddock, VC]

 

My take on it, for landing is gusty conditions they are very helpful, even more beneficial when landing heavily loaded models eg warbirds.

I haven't used them on trainers and I haven't trained anyone.

I use the Orange fasst combination gyro/receiver and also have used the orange standalone gyro, which is installed between the rx and servos.

Both take me some time to set up but at least two of my models are still in service and can be flown on days when it is a bit iffy.

They can also help tracking when taking off but they are nfu at low speed and my ones proved a handful when the model crosses the threshold of reaching a speed which gives control "bite" when getting airborne, amusing if you enjoy squirreling.

For this reason I don't find them helpful on extremely lightly loaded models eg vintage planes which tend to be slow both in responding and in flying speed, tried one on my Falcon, not helpful at all.

The most beneficial aspect is when everything goes belly up and one can murmur *&%$?@ gyro went berserk ......... whether or not one is fitted.

I understand they have their uses when landing on mars as well.

[Chris Walby]

Jon, so if its not about making life easy then why fly a trainer? Get straight out on the fastest most unstable model you can find, just let them crash a few times to prove to them its really difficult, how about a few sessions with the c of g way behind anything the instructor could handle. Just make their life hell, that should do it as we won't be seeing them again. I get absolutely no enjoyment from the long walk to pick up the remains of a model irrespective of who's dumb thumbs put it there.

 

IMO the learning process is long term and a number of steps to achieve whatever goal the trainee wants to achieve, some just want to enjoy the day and go home with the same number of bits they turned up with, others want to advance onto more challenging models and disciplines of the sport.

 

Just me, but I can't see the point of smashing up a perfectly good model or spending a couple of hours in the wood trying to hook the model out of a tree, when you can flick a switch and the model becomes more stable to fly.  Perhaps it should be compulsory only fly with elevator and rudder as part of your -A, and the +A could be with ailerons and while we are at it how about min of 40 oz/ft just to make sure they can't float about?

 

On one hand the argument is to have a slow stable model and the other is to use a stabilizer which achieves the same thing, we are just flying the same circuit but in different directions ? 

 

[Geoff S]

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

My trainer of choice was always the HMM Moonraker. Nice to fly, robust, stable but also aerobatic if you wanted. Great model. 

 

I always liked the Monnraker but I built mine long after I'd passed my 'A'.   Powered by an Irvine Q40.  The main draw back was glueing to the plastic fuselage but it was a very pretty aeroplane.

 

[Jon H]

12 minutes ago, Chris Walby said:

Jon, so if its not about making life easy then why fly a trainer? Get straight out on the fastest most unstable model you can find, just let them crash a few times to prove to them its really difficult, how about a few sessions with the c of g way behind anything the instructor could handle. Just make their life hell, that should do it as we won't be seeing them again. I get absolutely no enjoyment from the long walk to pick up the remains of a model irrespective of who's dumb thumbs put it there.

 

 

 

 

Seriously? Im sorry Chris but that has to be the daftest thing i have read in a while. 

 

Its obvious you dont give them something impossible to fly but its pointless if its super easy. You need to set the bar low enough that they can clear it with tuition, but setting is so low they trip over it will not teach them anything and is just a waste of time as they will just end up smashing up their 2nd model instead, which is likely to be more expensive than the first. 

 

Also if a student keeps crashing models, that is the instructors fault. The only time my students have damaged models is when teaching landing/takeoff and they were in that zone where there just is not time to correct it even with a buddy box. There is no reason for any student to suffer damage to their model until they have progressed to the point where the ground is involved in the lesson and even then its rarely a write off. We all broke props and undercarriages when learning to land and its why i make that the last lesson of the day so that any damage will not cancel their day of flying. 

 

The danger time comes once they graduate from a buddy box but have not quite made it to A vert yet. They are free to do as they please and this is when fatalities occur be it a tree, or the ground. All a stab will do here is make sure the model is arrow straight as it lawndarts into the earth

 

[Cuban8]

20 hours ago, Clarence Ragland said:

I've trained vision challenged people to fly. One thing I have all students do is not look at the trainer in flight and only look at their thumb on top of the elevator/aileron stick. I have them do this for a few minutes in some cases, but it usually only takes around a minute or two to get my point across. This drill works wonders as they get to see that their thumb moving the sticks is doing. They get to feel and see at the same time how much to move the sticks. One newbie came with an airplane that he built. He was legally blind and he could see what he was doing more or less while he was building, but couldn't see any further than 10 feet away. The other club instructors said they could help by checking his creation, fix whatever needed adjusting and trim out his trainer, but because he was vision impaired, they couldn't help him fly.

 

I told his wife, who drove him to the field, that I could hand him the transmitter and help him learn to fly. Everyone, even the guy's wife looked at me like I was insane. I got the plane in the air and explained what he should do. He too was quite bewildered, but very happy that he might be able to fly his plane. I told him to put his thumb on top of the elevator/aileron lever and to not move the stick. We flew an entire tank of fuel and he was happier than a pig in you know what. I even assisted him with a landing.

Have you ever heard of the lady who had never flown a full scale plane before and then land with assistance from the control tower?

The notion of visually impaired people flying R/C is intriguing. I suppose that it would depend of the level and type of vision loss, but I would think that FPV would be a very workable solution for someone who is limited to only being able to see well very close up and is therefore able to build models, but would find conventional line of sight flying impossible. Coupled with a stabilisation system or even an autopilot I'd think a whole world of possibilities could be opened up to those with even very limited vision to fly their models when coupled with sensible safety precautions.

[Andy48]

3 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

 

Absolutely spot on. 

 

Chris, regarding your windy day example i would tell the student we are going up and we would just fly the day as normal. Without the stab windy days are brilliant for teaching as there isnt time for the student to think, they have to react instinctively, and this is often a good thing as many students over think and then do nothing/the wrong thing. Once they start to see their reactions are instinctive their confidence improves rapidly. Its also really good for circuit planning as they know about the turbulent area's and i leave them to make choices about how to avoid them by thinking ahead of the model. its also general prep for flying on days that are not flat calm. Depending on the ability of the student at the time, i may do all the takeoff/landing so we dont break anything, or i may only do that for the first flight and then give them the choice. If they decide they want to try a takeoff in the howling gale, we brief it heavily, i may even fly a few examples, and then i let them try. Same thing with landing. There is an element of risk, but its their risk, they choose to take it and they didnt have to. I could have flown all the takeoff's but they decided they wanted to give it a go. If the model gets bent, sure its unfortunate but its still a learning opportunity. IF they get it right, then as before we have a real sense of achievement and it means that windy days are one less thing to fear. 

 

If you fly with the stab on, and the student gets used to that, they will be totally lost when flying a model later down the line and there is no stab to hold their hands. You just dont learn anything when its easy. 

 

The question im keen to hear answers on is this. What is the primary goal of training on a given day? Further their efforts to learn to fly long term, or, to make life easy so they have a good time on the day? To me these two are almost mutually exclusive as you cant learn to fly if you never get the chance because we are trying to make things artificially easy. 

 

 

I would disagree with this. There are a whole range of skills in learning to fly a plane. To answer your point above "What is the primary goal of training on a particular day". Frankly neither of your answers is appropriate, both are far too broad. If you take an absolute beginner, simply enjoying their first flight is probably a reasonable objective. After that one has to consider which skill or skills do they need to accomplish next. For example, it may be getting used to orientation or it may be developing motor memory. Some people pick up both of these very quickly others take much longer. As part of this process at times the use of a stabiliser can be a great help. A good instructor to gradually build up their skills in a structured way. Throwing a student into the deep end trying to do everything at once is a good way to end up with a disillusioned student who goes off to find another hobby.

[Jon H]

Andy, i see what you are saying but like Chris's post before you are reading way too far into it and you make it sound like i have never taught anyone before. 

 

For a start, the absolute beginner you mention would not be flying on the windy day i was discussing before. If its super choppy i wouldnt be putting a complete novice up, its common sense. 

 

As for adjusting the teaching to suit the student, yea i know. Kids of 8 to chaps of 80, nervous people, cocky people, oblivious people..taught them all. In fact the first thing i tend to ask people is what type of model they ultimately would like to fly. Do they want a sptifire? a tiger moth? etc. If i know what models attract them i can teach certain things with greater emphasis. 

 

The same is true for moving on to the next step. If they cant keep their wings level, trying to teach them to land is sort of pointless. Instead, i teach them to loop as you cant loop without level wings and circuits are boring anyway. Its a buzz for them doing a loop too, so they feel really good about it even when they go a bit wrong. Rolls are good as well. Break them down into 4 or 5 parts, make the student do each part in turn until they finally string all of them together. More fun than circuits, teaches planning as well as the physical skills. It also means they are getting used to the model in unusual positions and have ideas how to recover and all that. 

 

The deep end...Do i push my students quite hard? Yes, but none of them ran away in tears and none of them ended up with more broken models than would be considered normal when learning to fly. Most of them also achieved an above average standard for someone taking their A as i would look for almost B standard before they took their A. Why? because it made them better pilots. Obviously there were exceptions like the chap i mentined in posts before. Barely scraping an A was the best he could manage, but thats fine, he was enjoying himself anyway. 

 

 

Cuban, i had to try and teach a guy who lost his PPL and driving licence for being, basically, blind. He was useless. I tried, other instructors tried, but if you cant see, then what are we supposed to do? It didnt help that he chose the smallest model he could. We suggested he buy something a little bigger and he said he would after his laser eye surgery. He never did and disappeared in the end, but i dont see what more we could have done as he just couldnt see the model. 

[Andy48]

Coming back to stabilisers Jon, if you have one night a week training (which we do), you want to make the most of each evening, and its not really good to put beginners off by saying its too windy for them. If they are still at the developing the motor memory skill, then why not switch the stabiliser on and let them fly around in the wind with however much stabilisation they need to enjoy the experience and learn, rather than saying not this week mate?

 

When I was learning to fly the thing that occasionally annoyed me was when the instructor took back control just at that point where I have started to correct the model. I now use the aileron/elevator joystick to take back control, and this gives me, as the instructor, that bit more time and confidence to let them try to self correct.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Andy48

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, Andy48 said:

Coming back to stabilisers Jon, if you have one night a week training (which we do), you want to make the most of each evening, and its not really good to put beginners off by saying its too windy for them. If they are still at the developing the motor memory skill, then why not switch the stabiliser on and let them fly around in the wind with however much stabilisation they need to enjoy the experience and learn, rather than saying not this week mate?

 

When I was learning to fly the thing that occasionally annoyed me was when the instructor took back control just at that point where I have started to correct the model. I now use the aileron/elevator joystick to take back control, and this gives me, as the instructor, that bit more time and confidence to let them try to self correct.

 

yea i see what you are saying but it was only first flights that i would tend to hold for better weather. After the first couple are out of the way it was onward irrespective of the conditions. 

 

While It was rare we gave up due to weather, we had it set up so that the students arranged their training with a specific instructor as the older method of an evening a week or sunday afternoon etc just didnt work. Anyway when the session was being arranged a conversation would be had about the weather and if the instructor thought it marginal (given the specific model the student had) and we might not be able to fly, the student had the choice to chance a wasted trip or arrange another day. Again, picking your conditions and looking ahead is part of flight planning so i considered it good practice. Apart from the odd time where the conditions are not as expected, turning up and not flying due to weather most comes down to poor planning. 

 

 

you are spot on about instructors excessive input though. I always wait as long as i can while offering guidance vocally on how to fix things. The other thing i have seen before is instructors who are themselves not that experienced taking 'control' of a model after the student looses it, only to bin it themselves due to their own inexperience. Its really frustrating and we had to ban one self appointed instructor from teaching as the guy he was teaching lost 4 models and was going to leave the club. He sent a complaint letter to the chairman and we sorted it out. Until then, we didnt know anything about it. I dont think the chap lost a model for about a year after that and he was solo by then. 

[Matt Carlton]

One thing I would add here is that experience and skill don't always make for a good teacher. I was in a club where the 'expert' appointed himself as the club teacher, but was generally to be found impatiently taking the tx off the student every few minutes or showing off with 'demonstrations'. The essence of training is to teach people to fly just well enough to be safe and able to fly and land in one piece reasonably consistently. Most of the real learning comes after you take off the reins. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Matt Carlton

[Andy48]

40 minutes ago, Matt Carlton said:

One thing I would add here is that experience and skill don't always make for a good teacher. I was in a club where the 'expert' appointed himself as the club teacher, but was generally to be found impatiently taking the tx off the student every few minutes or showing off with 'demonstrations'. The essence of training is to teach people to fly just well enough to be safe and able to fly and land in one piece reasonably consistently. Most of the real learning comes after you take off the reins. 

That is actually true of any form of education, and I think we can all find examples back in our school days. Often the best instructors are those who didn't find learning to fly themselves all that easy.

[Andy48]

4 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

 

Again, picking your conditions and looking ahead is part of flight planning so i considered it good practice. Apart from the odd time where the conditions are not as expected, turning up and not flying due to weather most comes down to poor planning. 

We are a large club and have a fixed night once a week for training and the club is otherwise closed. Club has done it like that for donkey's years. Even worse when you are down there learning to fly with your own plane, and have to wait ages as the instructors are giving a group of 8-10 year olds their "3 free flights" while their dad enjoys a night off from having to entertain them. As a trainer now we  have to take what comes on that night, otherwise we can go for weeks on end without any training. Obviously far, far easier when one can plan when to go down and train.

[Tim Flyer]

Experience of teaching helps you become a good teacher, but in teaching beginners you don’t need to be an ace flyer.  However some aces are also very good teachers ... just depends on how sensitive they are to the pupils needs. 

Someone who has had to confront all the difficulties with no great natural ability but still managed to reach a good standard. can often connect better with the ordinary flyer. 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Tim Flyer

[Jon H]

yea training is a challenge. Having all the know how means nothing if you cannot communicate it. 

 

I have been on the receiving end of this recently in my attempts to learn guitar. I have a love for music, but no talent for it at all. Annoying online guitar lessons by guys playing stairway to heaven with their toes, and writing off a song i have struggled with for weeks as 'easy for a beginner' is really quite demoralising. 

 

This is why i am opposed to the whole idea of trying to make learning to fly seem easy as this gives the student a false hope of how quickly they will learn. If they fall short of that they feel bad. If you tell them its difficult and will take time, they at least have the right mindset going in as they know it is something they will not master in an afternoon. 

[J D 8]

21 hours ago, Matt Carlton said:

One thing I would add here is that experience and skill don't always make for a good teacher. I was in a club where the 'expert' appointed himself as the club teacher, but was generally to be found impatiently taking the tx off the student every few minutes or showing off with 'demonstrations'. The essence of training is to teach people to fly just well enough to be safe and able to fly and land in one piece reasonably consistently. Most of the real learning comes after you take off the reins. 

  I have the same problem but with operating computers, I ask one of my kids " how do you do so and so on the laptop ? " The answer is "Its easy and demonstrate the actions needed " I may remember for a little while but it never gets locked in. Where as if some one talks me through while I do the actions it may stick.?

[Clarence Ragland]

“Tell me and I forget, teach me and I may remember, involve me
and I learn”

[Don Fry]

JD8, from ancient instructors. A job, installation, procedure, whatever. 

1, do it, they watch and listen, smell, taste, as necessary. 

2, they do it, you correct, advise, supervise, as necessary.. but they do it. 
3, they do it. 

 

the tricky bit, if that fails, are you not communicating effectively, too big a knowledge step, or are you trying to educate pork. And I think that is what makes a great instructor. They know. 
 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Don Fry
More bits

[Ron Gray]

An interesting topic this one and one that I’ve been pondering over for some time. Now I’m not an instructor but over the last year, in between lockdowns, I have been helping my older brother ‘re-learn’ flying. He used to fly a lot and was a ‘B cert’ but suffered a stroke about 12 years ago and could no longer fly due to not only losing the power of speech but also his coordination too. Since then he has recovered some speech but not to the level of being able to hold a conversation, he can drive plus he can do woodwork and build ‘planes but he has great difficulty flying. I’ve been using my Sig Rascal 110” for the re-learning as I’ve found that it’s size and it’s good nature are ideally suited to the task in hand but the 2  things I’ve noticed with his flying is that right hand circuits are more difficult for him than left (effect of the stroke) and his reactions are somewhat slow, actually that’s not strictly true, his reactions are fine but not always correct! So how does this fit in with this topic, well I have been wondering if the fitting of a stabiliser would help him gain confidence as it may iron out some of his over corrections? Obviously he is on a buddy lead and I try and let him fly and get out of problems himself as much as possible but would a stab help? 

His flying has improved and he can now fly both left and right hand circuits and fig 8 but there is nothing subtle about his manoeuvres, no finesse on the controls and he is not yet ready for take offs or landings but we will persevere as the more we practice the better he becomes. I should add that I’ve found that giving him verbal instructions can be counter productive, it’s far better to either signal with my hands or one word, repeated instructions.

 

I suppose I’m just really thinking out loud but if anyone has had similar experiences I would like to hear!