GrumpyGnome Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) Agree entirely re stabilizers - hate them. Favourite tale/urban myth/anecdote in our club re stabilizers.... gentleman had recently gone solo on his powered glider. Having a lovely time. Said glider caught a thermal and started to ascend. Never happened to tyro pilot before so was slightly panicked and slightly excited. Up and up went the glider. Best get back to the field thought pilot. However, as stabilization was switched on, control throws were severely limited and plan could not escape thermal before it disappeared from view. One lost plane that I attribute, at least in part, to stabilization. (Also due to not having the stabilization so it could be easily and quickly switched off). Hopefully, no experienced pilots were at the field at time to try and help..... @911hillclimberswitch it off and learn how to fly properly. GG Edited June 10, 2021 by GrumpyGnome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Bradly Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 One of clubmates, new to flying, has tought himself to fly with models fitted with stabilisation. He's now on the third model, and i note he his steadily dialling back the amount of stabilisation in control. i think this is a great way to do it: Use the tools available to ensure initial success, but as confidence, and perhaps moreso skill grows, start removing the "training wheels". they have their place, in all aspects of model flying, for those to whish to use them. However, those pilots also need to know what the stabilisation does, and perhaps moreso, will not do for them, and understand this. 911hillcimber, my advice to you: is learn to fly as you feel appropriate, and switch them off/use them as and when it suits you. Good luck with the initial flights, i can understand the enthusiasm vs the weather and the other factors out of your control often don't align! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Walby Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 GG Stabilizers, why would you reduce control throws that just limits its ability to control and that of the pilot. Just another example of incorrect use of technology getting a bad name...TBH I fly the Kiingfisher in quite windy conditions (bog standard RX) 20 mph gusting 40 mph and its tossed around due to its low wing loading, but a load of fun. If I was a novice then a stabilizer would smooth things out a lot and make the landing less likely ending up requiring glue. The point is that it allows the pilot to fly in windier conditions and hence more practice which allows them to improve. As ever its the appropriate use of technology by the operator, not the fault of the equipment itself. I really don't like SAFE, but it has a place rather than just smashing the model up every time the pilot tries to fly. We all know what the ideal situation should be, novice arrives at club with suitable model and multiple instructors are willing and have time to teach him/her. The reality is far from that for whatever reason and if technology can be used go get another person into this hobby then all the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911hillclimber Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 I bought the FMS Kingfisher because it had stabilisation. The unit is set to a switch on the Tx, so it starts OFF, but can be switched to MAX or Enhanced. The man who has helped so far wanted it off, and also reduced the control surface movement so my abrupt inputs would not result in violent changes. This is how it is trimmed today, OFF. Will see what the next man thinks on Tuesday. When flown in this OFF/trimmed state the pane flew really well at the hands of the experienced flyer who felt the calmer controls would suit my level of proficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 My mistake. Reflex seems to be gyro stabilization (a la AS3X) not limiting controls (a la SAFE). Still not a great fan of either but I guess anything that maximises 'stick time' is good... GG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Taylor Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 It's a common misconception that SAFE (other systems are available) limits control throws. It doesn't. What it limits is pitch angle and bank angle. You can get full deflection in all control modes but the controls will centralise when the pre-set angle is reached. There could of course also be a high / low rate switch in play, but that wont affect the gyro 'throw' only the stick throw. Even in low rate, the gyro can give full servo deflection. So sorry GG, your thermal story is urban myth, at least as far as SAFE being the cause.? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Good job I added the disclaimer ! ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Lewis 3 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Kim Taylor said: So sorry GG, your thermal story is urban myth, at least as far as SAFE being the cause.? Like you said the gyro limits pitch and bank angle, so if a glider is in a body of rising air so that in effect it is rising with no pitch attitude then the gyro will limit the pitch and bank angle when trying to escape it so no diving out of the thermal. Likely is an urban myth but it is possible as far as I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911hillclimber Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) As I understand the FMS device is the plane will stabilize itself in flight to level and straight no matter the height if the sticks are all 'hands-off' except the motor. In full Stab mode you can hold the plane and move it rapidly and the surfaces correct to seek level flight using it's gyro element even if the plane is out of trim. This same thing happens in flight at slow speed or fast. Obviously, too slow and the plane will descend while trying to seek level flight, a slow glide down to a bump/belly landing. All this helps (I presume) to give a novice time to think and respond. Anything that intervenes can be difficult, but here 'hands-off' is a control you apply oddly. The Optimum mode is ailerons only interestingly. I have just noticed how BIG this thread is getting! I really do appreciate all the advice given and I hope by the end of summer to be safe enough to cope, and especially if I can fly my original recent plane the Ben Buckle Buccaneer and float around the fields in total control! This is the plane being flown by one-who-knows at the windy hill-top field I'm a member of. Edited June 10, 2021 by 911hillclimber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 In your last picture, behind the big tree in centre ground, in the background there seems to be a grassy slope or ridge. I don't know your area or the orientation of that slope, but go and investigate it, it may be a suitable soaring slope ? Check out the map of the area... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911hillclimber Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 Quite a few fly powered gliders there with success. The breeze always seems to be horizontal to 45 deg sock, about 8 mph or more. The land falls away not that much tbh, maybe 10 feet beyond the mown field usually full of sheep! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Taylor Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Philip Lewis 3 said: Like you said the gyro limits pitch and bank angle, so if a glider is in a body of rising air so that in effect it is rising with no pitch attitude then the gyro will limit the pitch and bank angle when trying to escape it so no diving out of the thermal. Likely is an urban myth but it is possible as far as I see it. Sorry, don't understand - push the stick forward, pitch down, dive out of the thermal - no? Unless you're saying that the air is rising so fast that a (say) 20 degree dive won't overcome the lift??? Genuine question, I'm no kind of glider pilot. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Lewis 3 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Correct, the thermal could quite easily be strong enough so that the pitch that safe allowed whatever it is wouldn't be enough to get out of it. It's not that uncommon for gliders with full control and experienced pilots to have trouble getting out of a big thermal with tales of gliders still rising rapidly even when they've deliberately rolled inverted to try and get out (because a glider will not stand a steep dive due to it's airframe). So I would think that even a moderate thermal could quite easily rise faster than safe would allow you to try and dive out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 I nearly lost a Junior 60 in a strong thermal so be warned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Taylor Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 7 hours ago, Philip Lewis 3 said: Correct, the thermal could quite easily be strong enough so that the pitch that safe allowed whatever it is wouldn't be enough to get out of it. It's not that uncommon for gliders with full control and experienced pilots to have trouble getting out of a big thermal with tales of gliders still rising rapidly even when they've deliberately rolled inverted to try and get out (because a glider will not stand a steep dive due to it's airframe). So I would think that even a moderate thermal could quite easily rise faster than safe would allow you to try and dive out of it. Fair enough - every day's a school day!!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911hillclimber Posted June 15, 2021 Author Share Posted June 15, 2021 Flew the Kingfisher this morning! Got a lot of help from all 4 flyers there on a very sunny and quite still field. Eventually got the buddy cord to work and the 2 experts trimmed the plane, checked it's abilities (a loop!) and handed over to me and took over when it went pear shaped. Ran one battery down and 2/3's of another before Tim had to leave, but i flew it and did not crash. They obviously took off and landed it, but it flew great. So, what did i learn? 1 It takes (or will take) this old dog ages to learn this new trick, but I'm keen, but not sure I can deliver tbh. 2 Away and Towards flight orientation is not yet intuitive, and getting a SIM was recommended. 3 This is the place to learn, so will be joining up so keeping my 'instructors' 4 Fly high and get used to it. Adds much more room for recovery. 5 Everyone want you to succeed! 6 Battery capacity is easily exceeded... Next lesson Tuesday I hope if weather permits and Tim is free. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Watkins Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 29 minutes ago, 911hillclimber said: Away and Towards flight orientation is not yet intuitive, and getting a SIM was recommended. flight sim definitely Hillclimber the last 4 weeks my novice has flown 1 day each week at a rate of 4 x 5 minute flights, on 4 lipo packs, that is 20 minutes per week to learn the above In just 1_week at home with a flight sim, @ 20 minutes per day, he could do 7 weeks flying at home ! ! ! Each week on a SIM I have told him I have a approx sim application time of 10 hours to be fluent left right up down with a model. That is only 30 days @ 20 minutes per day to be quite adept at flying just using a flight sim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 7. Patience is a virtue. Number 5 is spot on, everyone does want you to succeed, hope it works out for you. ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 Yep, and some weeks it will seem like you are making no progress or even regressing. It takes a while for the flying to become intuitive and then you can start to concentrate on where you want the model to be and where it is relative to the runway/bush/hedge/tree etc rather than your brain being overloaded with determining which way to move the sticks. Also everybody is different and learns at a different pace, annoyingly the youngsters seem to pick it up quicker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 @911hillclimberGreat news ! Being a cheapskate, I got one of these Sims..... 22 In 1 USB Hobby Drone With Cable RC Simulator Accessories For RealFlight G7 | eBay Works fine, you can update RealFlight online (not to latest versions) and update Phoenix to latest version before it was discontinued. You can also download lots of models and scenery for these. I set up a model on my Taranis for each of these sims. I never managed to get Reflex to work, and the others are just really games and fillers. GG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911hillclimber Posted June 22, 2021 Author Share Posted June 22, 2021 Tried to fly today, but the sock was horizontal most of the time and gusting. 2 models into the ground and one AWOL, couldn't find it even though we thought we saw where it came down, so somewhat dis-spirited, came home. This is tougher by the week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Davies 3 Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, 911hillclimber said: Tried to fly today, but the sock was horizontal most of the time and gusting. 2 models into the ground and one AWOL, couldn't find it even though we thought we saw where it came down, so somewhat dis-spirited, came home. This is tougher by the week! Weather is a fact of our lives, 911. I know how frustrating it is, but I don't particularly enjoy flying in strong (and certainly gusty) winds. As this is a hobby meant to be enjoyed, why bother? I wait for days that I will enjoy. Certainly, looking out of my window at the moment, I'm not considering any flying action today! Peter Miller has a good rule; 10/10. Over 10 degrees and under 10mph. Not a bad rule, in my book. As has been said on a number of occasions here; be patient! If you can't fly, go do something else; don't persist and force yourself to fly. It will end in unnecessary tears. Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 Get a slope soarer for windy days ! In my hiboy days, we flew in low windy conditions, enough to allow the hiboy to hover, and even fly backwards as seen from the ground. Good practise at hieght, on the verge of a tip stall etc., Open throttle a bit and forward ground speed again. Ic powered ( magnum 40 ) with quite a large fuel tank, yes hiboy was a bit on the heavy side but flew well, even upsidedown on 3 channels. I know, I flew it, flew the socks off it, did the book on 3 channels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Watkins Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 (edited) As Graham says to you, Graham, 10/10 is your guide. with your Flight Simm, used in " ground in view " in One Month of using it 20 minutes per day, you will transform your flying. Don t just pootle around looking at the underbelly Fly circuits, left and right hand, returning to fly over your take off point, and figure of 8s And practice " deadsticks " from crossing in front of you On the downwind leg at 100ft and shut the motor off Back to base Always have a plan, On your SIM or at the field. Edited June 22, 2021 by Denis Watkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 (edited) Using a similar can only help, as can the sayings, prop the dipping wing etc.. 2 crashes and a flyaway ! Reason for the crashes ? Reason for the flyaway ? Reported ? On your SIM, try landing downwind rather than into wind, for the practise, as one day you will have no option.... Edited June 22, 2021 by Rich Griff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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