Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 11 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said: My old club had a setup where students who had not passed their A/club solo (we had two options) but were safe to fly were allowed to fly solo with one model with a view to them practicing for their test. It worked very well. The purpose of the supervisor (assuming an off buddy box pre solo/A cert pilot is being watched) is to get a feeling for the students overall proficiency. That way, if we have seen them fly well for a while but they fluff their landing on test day we can give them the benefit of the doubt and still give them a pass. I hope this policy refers to a club test Jon, not the BMFA Achievement Scheme A test. My understanding is that it’s an absolute requirement that the manoeuvres must be demonstrated to an acceptable standard. The examiner may ask a candidate to repeat an aspect which falls short of the required standard but only to a limited degree. Your pilot of known ability shouldn’t have any problem repeating the test if he messes up the first attempt if he’s at A standard. Accepting lower standards “because he’s usually OK” devalues the value of the scheme as it is not a true recognition of their achievement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 My former large club had long operated their own flying test for beginners and until a beginner had passed that test they were not permitted to fly solo-they always had to be accompanied by an experienced pilot. A few instructors used buddy boxes, but ot was mostly a grab-the-tranny system. When the club moved to a larger field, with more permanent facilities around the millenium the decision was made to affilliate to the BMFA and the "A" test was adopted as the new flying test for solo flight. That presented a bit of a problem as the vast majority of experienced pilots had no BMFA certification at all. The committee set a one year transitional period and during that time almost all of the experienced pilots got their "A" and some "B" certificates. It made for a much clearer training method, using the Up and Away scheme and was a huge success- which yielded real benefits in improving site safety. My current main clubs don't have such formal schemes in operation and there is no requirement for beginners to pass a formal test of have certification before flying solo. There was a push a few years ago to increase the number of pilots with "A" or SAA Bronze certification, but it still isn't a requirement. Personally I think it is much better for a beginner to have the discipline of following a scheme like the BMFA Up and Away and to have more structured learning, but recognise that isn't for everyone - better in the long run though. As a pilot who has that early learning a long way behind, I do appreciate the more laid back feel of my current clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 52 minutes ago, Cassandra said: If you think that all 'A's (and 'B's and 'C's) are done to the correct standard at all clubs, I have a bridge to sell you. We agree on something, sort of bridge is it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickw Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Cassandra said: If you think that all 'A's (and 'B's and 'C's) are done to the correct standard at all clubs, I have a bridge to sell you. I doubt if anyone thinks that, but if it is not picked up as unacceptable at every opportunity people might start to think that is how it is supposed to work. We can but try. Dick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 Thanks Dick. This was exactly my motivation for posting and from the position of an ordinary examiner, I see the examiner workshops being run by areas as the main tool to try to achieve harmonisation between club examiners' standards. As to whether I have either the funds to buy a bridge or a requirement for one remains a moot point - I suspect this is a regional expression but perhaps a good example of how things, including the English language, can vary across a very short distance in national terms unless they're shared! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Davis Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 9 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said: Thanks Dick. This was exactly my motivation for posting and from the position of an ordinary examiner, I see the examiner workshops being run by areas as the main tool to try to achieve harmonisation between club examiners' standards. As to whether I have either the funds to buy a bridge or a requirement for one remains a moot point - I suspect this is a regional expression but perhaps a good example of how things, including the English language, can vary across a very short distance in national terms unless they're shared! Perhaps it refers to the sale of London Bridge to an American. The story I heard was that when London Bridge was demolished an American bought it thinking that it was Tower Bridge. I don't know whether it's true though. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hall 9 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, David Davis said: Perhaps it refers to the sale of London Bridge to an American. The story I heard was that when London Bridge was demolished an American bought it thinking that it was Tower Bridge. I don't know whether it's true though. ? for info..... London Bridge; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 20 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said: Thanks Dick. This was exactly my motivation for posting and from the position of an ordinary examiner, I see the examiner workshops being run by areas as the main tool to try to achieve harmonisation between club examiners' standards. As to whether I have either the funds to buy a bridge or a requirement for one remains a moot point - I suspect this is a regional expression but perhaps a good example of how things, including the English language, can vary across a very short distance in national terms unless they're shared! Agree to a point Martin, club members aught to be getting involved if they think there's iffy standards about, all well and good posting on forums and moaning to the BMFA, those who ratify each year have authority to change things, use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 Realistically, I suspect that the ratifications are generally a paper exercise and only if standards have obviously slipped or there been some major transgression would a committee consider not re-ratifying an examiner. This doesn't make it right but I do feel that the message ought to be promoted at every opportunity that the achievement tests are intended as a national standard. There is nothing preventing a club introducing its own solo flying standard but it should not be modifying the requirements of the BMFA test. My personal opinion is that ideally in order to be re-ratified every examiner should have to attend a workshop on (perhaps) a 3 or 5 year minimum basis but this does assume that sufficient workshops were available in larger geographical areas. I'm not advocating retesting - just an opportunity to see and discuss standards outside the limited environment of their own club. This might be something that could be adapted to an on-line format as the WWW continues to evolve and become increasingly part of day to day life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 Brooklyn Bridge We discourage (but do not ban) flying alone from a safety aspect. We are all blokes of a certain age and although being out in the countryside under a vast blue sky may be a good way to go, I'd prefer it were not just yet... But we do absolutely ban novices from being at the site and flying alone, for all the reasons mentioned above, particularly the possibility of 'incidents' causing problems for our site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 Club committee do not re ratify our examiners, the members do at the AGM. Now I know speaking up can be and is difficult, but no amount of workshops where we can go nod our heads and tick boxes will cure some problems, if you pass your mate out and he don't deserve it on merit, I don't believe it was done because you were not current. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 1 hour ago, john stones 1 said: Club committee do not re ratify our examiners, the members do at the AGM. Now I know speaking up can be and is difficult, but no amount of workshops where we can go nod our heads and tick boxes will cure some problems, if you pass your mate out and he don't deserve it on merit, I don't believe it was done because you were not current. Two different matters John. Integrity is one thing but the other is simply differing standards which is where the workshops can be so useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 The Royal yachting association said of training, send us an idiot, we will return a trained idiot. Members will spot idiots. A clue, you stop flying, to watch, and duck as necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 46 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said: Two different matters John. Integrity is one thing but the other is simply differing standards which is where the workshops can be so useful. No issues with workshops Martin, a good day out in good company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 The primary purpose of the BMFA achievement scheme is about personal aspiration, by encouraging improved flying standards & safe practices then recognising the attained level. It's not about gaining a licence. I see no reason that the standards should be the same in every BMFA area or even amongst different clubs within the same area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 6, 2021 Author Share Posted June 6, 2021 I completely agree with your first statement but isn't the point that it is a NATIONAL achievement scheme and therefore that achievement should have the same value whether taken in Barnet, Barnsley or Barnstaple? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 The value is in the mind of the holder, so if he/she is satisfied that the examiner has tested to within what he/she understands to be the prescribed criteria I see no reason to be pedantic about "national" standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickw Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 A club can test to whatever standards it wishes to apply for its own testing requirements, and if anyone wishes to write their own certificates and get someone to sign them that is fine. If the holder of such a certificate is happy, then I have no problem with that. BUT I would strongly object to anyone applying their own examination criteria and standards and then issuing a BMFA Achievement Scheme Certificate. That just seems completely wrong to me. If anyone is claiming to issue BMFA Achievement Certificates then the requirements of the tests should be adhered to as all examiners should know. We know applying common standards is not easy but it should at least be attempted for a National Scheme. Dick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Dickw said: I would strongly object to anyone applying their own examination criteria and standards and then issuing a BMFA Achievement Scheme Certificate. That just seems completely wrong to me. If anyone is claiming to issue BMFA Achievement Certificates then the requirements of the tests should be adhered to as all examiners should know. We know applying common standards is not easy but it should at least be attempted for a National Scheme. Dick We're talking about personal interpretation of the criteria by experienced model fliers who have taken on the role of examiner. Any variation is only likely to be one of personal judgement. The purpose of the scheme is to promote what is essentially a "feel good" confidence booster to the examinee that has no impact on anyone else's. When there are no winners or losers between areas, why get anal about how commonality ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Gates Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 Can I ask about the requirements of ratification please? How is an examiner ratified, does he have to be current flying and how is that judged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 11 minutes ago, Cassandra said: I was intending to become an examiner. I saw a couple of mates 'B's given and decided that I was going to have as little to do with the 'achievement scheme' as possible. Why was you intending becoming an examiner ? Your standard is decided by you and your conduct, get yourself in there and change things, talk on here is easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, Andy Gates said: Can I ask about the requirements of ratification please? How is an examiner ratified, does he have to be current flying and how is that judged? Club re ratifies if they're happy with examiners performance, yearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Gates Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 1 minute ago, john stones 1 said: Club re ratifies if they're happy with examiners performance, yearly. Do they? Should that go out to members or is that an internal committee thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 5 minutes ago, Andy Gates said: Do they? Should that go out to members or is that an internal committee thing? Our members get asked, committee then ticks or not, the box decided upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickw Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 2 hours ago, PatMc said: We're talking about personal interpretation of the criteria by experienced model fliers who have taken on the role of examiner. Any variation is only likely to be one of personal judgement. The purpose of the scheme is to promote what is essentially a "feel good" confidence booster to the examinee that has no impact on anyone else's. When there are no winners or losers between areas, why get anal about how commonality ? If we are just talking about personal interpretation of the set criteria I have to agree that does inevitably exist. The BMFA has tried to address that with the various Achievement Scheme Roadshows (held round the country pre Covid) and Zoom get-togethers (post Covid), and various BMFA Areas regularly hold “Examiner Workshops” so examiners can get together and compare notes on how they judge the tests. Most examiners seem to enjoy the opportunity to get their own views across and perhaps learn from others. Of course we also now have a number of videos to help both examiner and examinee understand what is required. All of this is with the aim of trying to get some measure of commonality across the country. I am sure it is not perfect, but it seems worthwhile to try. Dick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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