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1 minute ago, Peter Jenkins said:

I agree.  I've flown against myself in Clubman, Intermediate and even Masters on one occasion.  

 

The year we didn't need a B to enter competition, I had 10 entrants in Clubman in the two competitions I ran!  This was unheard of for over 10 years.  Some of these guys went on to get their Bs - in comparison with Clubman, the B's quite easy, but the swotting is still needed.

 

Yep, I read your NPD thread and followed it.

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I passed a man for his A, lets call him Steve then I won't get in bother. ?

When I passed him he was A standard, now ? Well he's totally lost his confidence, rarely takes his models off or lands them. He'd one model that required a thumb full of rudder to take off, he decked the model eventually and been a bag of nerves ever since. Despite our efforts I doubt he'll ever get back to taking off/landing. So "Standards" have slipped.

 

What to do ? Opinions please.

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Make the process less intimidating?

 

Lightweight model with no undercarriage. Hand launch and belly landing. Band on wings?

 

Fewer bits to bend and break. 'Planes that do not qualify as suitable for taking an 'A' test are still good 'planes.

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That's the thing with the current situation and tests.  I did try and get currency introduced so every 3-5 years if you re-did a test you got an A* or B*.  That way people would know you had done the test recently and not 20 years ago then had a gap of 15 years before coming back and saying they have a B.

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15 minutes ago, Martin_K said:

Make the process less intimidating?

 

Lightweight model with no undercarriage. Hand launch and belly landing. Band on wings?

 

Fewer bits to bend and break. 'Planes that do not qualify as suitable for taking an 'A' test are still good 'planes.

 

He flys his Bixler unaided Martin, we talked him into buying one.

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11 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Maybe I was unclear fellas.

I passed him for his A, he's now dipped below the "Standard" What would you do ?

 

I'd shrug my shoulders and carry on. 

 

He passed his A test at the time, good on him. That was an achievement that he can be satisfied with.

 

Now he has lost his confidence unless he becomes a danger to his fellow fliers - which from your description he is not - there is no need for any other action other than to support him in the flying he wants to do.

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We've had similar.  I've gone back on a buddy lead with some nervous/ageing pilots who are having difficulties - it shouldn't be seen as anything to be ashamed of and dual time in the full size world for check flights and conversions is the norm.  I have a friend who can fly basic models reasonably well but when he flies one of his more precious examples, we buddy up and he not only gets to see it fly but has a go himself.  In one case, an offer of some further training at quiet times was spurned by a respected elder member of many years who was, frankly, becoming a constant danger to other members and himself...crashing in the pits, forgetting to wear his glasses, having regular personal accidents with propellers, flagrant disregard of club rules and airspace and insisting on flying 120 FS powered and fairly highly wing loaded models rather than something easier and less hazardous.  He took himself off to another rather less popular club and apparently only flew when there was nobody else there.  I was either Chairman or Secretary at the time and I regard it as my worst ever failure of my club duties that we weren't able to assist him to remain flying at our club.

 

Once again, it's important to remember that the A and B are NOT licences - they are standards to strive for and the award shows that the standard has been achieved and demonstrated.  The club is really responsible for ongoing maintenance of flying standards - one aspect of which MAY be possession of an A certificate and maintenance of the standard required to achieve it.  I know that there's a mechanism to withdraw a certificate but I'm fairly sure it's only enacted in extreme circumstances and for those who stubbornly claim that possession of an A gives them licence (in the wider sense) to fly where and when they want, putting other members or the public at serious risk.

 

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24 minutes ago, Cassandra said:

 

 

 

If they are only achievements, why is there a withdrawal procedure?

 

 

?

I think you'll find my suggestion for that apparent anomaly in my previous post.  The scheme seem quite aware that many clubs do regard it as a qualification and in extreme circumstances it may be of assistance to a club to be able to withdraw it as this involves an impartial examiner from elsewhere.  I suspect that the majority of flyers would have realised their limitations and retired to easier models or their deckchairs before it became an issue.

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On 07/06/2021 at 21:43, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

... - at least there is a mechanism to review the examiner's suitability on a yearly basis! 

I note on the BMFA Membership Portal that my examiner status is listed as an 'achievement', just like my A and B. 

 

It would be a bizarre situation if hoops had to be jumped through to revoke an A or B, but an 'E' could be expunged on the whim of an incompetent (I use the term literally) Club Committee. 

 

I'll be seeking clarification that if an examiner's Club credential is revoked, their achievement of 'E' status (arguably more difficult than a B...) still remains and is recorded as such on their membership card, assuming they've received one.

 

That said, I agree that no 'achievement' should be irrevocable if a competent authority deems the holder no longer worthy of it.

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Interesting question.  I don't think this is covered in the published scheme documentation?

 

My examiner status shows that it expires on 31/1/2022.  The examiner rating/achievement/whatever isn't the same as the A,B or C as it is that club committee (incompetent or not) which nominates a prospective examiner and it isn't regarded as part of the personal achievement progression.  While you do need to satisfy an ACE that you are suitable, your rating is only valid while a club continues to renew your ratification.

 

I know that if I'm invited to test at another club by their committee, I can conduct tests there but as far as I'm aware, not if my rating had expired. The acid test would be if you moved clubs and allowed your rating to lapse.  The membership site infers that lapsed ratings are still recorded - I wonder if someone from the scheme could confirm whether they can be re-activated by a committee application and/or if there's a time limit on validity?

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Back in the days when I used to understand things, my understanding of this matter was that examiner status expired with BMFA membership (but your A or B didn't - if you rejoined, they popped up again).  I know this to be the case because one of my fellow examiners took a 'sabbatical'.  When she dumped him, he rejoined with his B intact, but no E.

 

Anyhoo - I've asked Duncan McClure to clarify ?

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2 hours ago, Mike T said:

I note on the BMFA Membership Portal that my examiner status is listed as an 'achievement', just like my A and B. 

 

It would be a bizarre situation if hoops had to be jumped through to revoke an A or B, but an 'E' could be expunged on the whim of an incompetent (I use the term literally) Club Committee. 

 

I'll be seeking clarification that if an examiner's Club credential is revoked, their achievement of 'E' status (arguably more difficult than a B...) still remains and is recorded as such on their membership card, assuming they've received one.

 

That said, I agree that no 'achievement' should be irrevocable if a competent authority deems the holder no longer worthy of it.

If an examiner is not ratified by a club before 31st January they are no longer an examiner and the rating will expire at that point and it will no longer show as active on their records.

if they are then ratified by the same or a different club before 31st March it is re-activated for that year. After 31st March they would need to be re-assessed for the role.

Edited by Andy Symons - BMFA
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5 hours ago, Mike T said:

I note on the BMFA Membership Portal that my examiner status is listed as an 'achievement', just like my A and B. 

 

It would be a bizarre situation if hoops had to be jumped through to revoke an A or B, but an 'E' could be expunged on the whim of an incompetent (I use the term literally) Club Committee. 

 

I'll be seeking clarification that if an examiner's Club credential is revoked, their achievement of 'E' status (arguably more difficult than a B...) still remains and is recorded as such on their membership card, assuming they've received one.

 

That said, I agree that no 'achievement' should be irrevocable if a competent authority deems the holder no longer worthy of it.

Andy has answered your question above.  Am I right in assuming that you are an Examiner?  If the answer is "Yes" then be careful about calling others "literally incompetent", when you have demonstrated that you have not kept up-to-date on the Achievement Scheme.  If you read page 7 of the Achievement Scheme Handbook, available as a download from the Achievement Scheme Website, the process of appointment of Club Examiners is set out very clearly.  There is no to seek clarification - just read the documents with which a Club Examiner should be fully conversant.  Just saying! 

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  • 2 weeks later...

 Here's my Q & A with Duncan:

 

"When an ACE passes a candidate for Examiner, does the resulting Examiner achievement (or status) stay with that individual whether they are subsequently ratified by their Club as a ‘Club Examiner’ or not?
I appreciate that there is a mechanism for revoking other achievements and that unlike the A and B, the ‘Examiner’ achievement lapses if they cease to maintain their BMFA membership."

 

"The short answer is no!

Examiner status is NOT an award like an 'A' or 'B', it is an annual appointment that must be renewed (re-ratified) each year by at least one club. If the examiner isn't re-ratified they lose their examiner status. This so clubs can control those who they wish to have as examiners. It's important that it's done this way, as clubs are the only ones with the local knowledge of how the examiner is performing. This is particularly important when examiners don't remain current (up to date with legislation changes etc.) or maybe because of health reason, they don't fly anymore. There are lots of reasons, and these are only examples, but I hope this explains things.

This isn't a change; it has been this way for several decades."

 

So that put me straight!

 

I don't know what provision is made in the procedure our Treasurer follows to re-affiliate the Club, but he's been doing it a few years and it's only in the past two that my fellow examiner and I have received notifications that our rating was about to expire.  I'll bring it to his attention.

 

I'd suggest to @Andy Symons - BMFAthat perhaps examiner status needs to be removed from the 'achievements' section of the individual membership record.  I'm not moved in my opinion that because examiner status has to be achieved like an A, B or C, it should be treated in the same way.  I'm entirely comfortable with Clubs ratifying examiners to act in an official capacity for their Clubs, but the notion that they could effectively remove it (when they cannot so easily remove an A,B or C) appals me. 

 

Which brings me to competence.  It's entirely possible that a Club could elect a committee comprising completely 'unqualified' members and it is ridiculous that they should then be deemed competent to exercise an opinion on said Club's examiners (hence 'literally incompetent'.)  If a Club has issues with an examiner, the matter should be referred to their ACA and it is he (or she) should have the power to revoke.

 

As far as my personal competence is concerned - yes I put my hand up to not fully reading all the current blurb.  If other people want to obsessively pore over every whip stitch, then that's up to them.  I take a more pragmatic approach which is to read what needs to be read when it needs to be read - like when there is a test or an Area Examiner's Workshop in the offing.  This ensures I am reading up-to-date stuff and not relying on a memory of something which may have been superseded.  Even so, I'm unlikely to read the bits about how I come to be what I am!   Otherwise, I tend to concentrate on the practical matter of just getting the manoeuvres right (candidates and mine...)

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3 minutes ago, Mike T said:

I'd suggest to @Andy Symons - BMFAthat perhaps examiner status needs to be removed from the 'achievements' section of the individual membership record.  I'm not moved in my opinion that because examiner status has to be achieved like an A, B or C, it should be treated in the same way.  I'm entirely comfortable with Clubs ratifying examiners to act in an official capacity for their Clubs, but the notion that they could effectively remove it (when they cannot so easily remove an A,B or C) appals me. 

The achievements section is entirely the correct place to keep examiner status. Also examiner status is not achieved like an A, B or C, an individual cannot simply put themselves forward for examiner status like they can to take the A, B or C.

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