john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Seems right place to me as well, he/she is part of the scheme. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 How does a club remove an unwanted Examiner, he may be current, attend all workshops and can fly the routines, but what if he's a pompous sort who adds to the list because his standards are higher than the test requirements, good candidates can't get passed by the man, or maybe he's a different type, all his buddies have Bs so they can fly at events, but the club knows it's a sham. Who other than the clubs can police this ? The job is serving your club, not a personal job for life regardless of conduct. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 I don't know if it's ever been done "mid-term" but if a club decides not to re-ratify an examiner, that's job done. I understand some of the arguments being put forward but wonder whether this would possibly sit better as a "qualification" - there is a category for such on the membership site... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Andy Symons - BMFA said: The achievements section is entirely the correct place to keep examiner status. Also examiner status is not achieved like an A, B or C, an individual cannot simply put themselves forward for examiner status like they can to take the A, B or C. OK - so you are put forward by your Club for the E but by yourself for the ABC. Apart from that, you fly the B test and answer the questions (and more) - so the E is an achievement which should only be revoked by your peers. @Martin Harris - Moderator- qualification - exactly @john stones 1 - Moderator - Club appeals to the ACA - as I wrote. Agree not a job for life, but if the BMFA requires it to be gained in the same format as an achievement, it should be regarded as such. If my Club decided to sack me, I wouldn't be bothered, but I would object to losing something I'd earned. Blimey! The next thing you know, they'll be after my 'O'-levels! ? Edited June 25, 2021 by Mike T addition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 44 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said: Seems right place to me as well, he/she is part of the scheme. So it's an achievement then?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Symons - BMFA Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, Mike T said: OK - so you are put forward by your Club for the E but by yourself for the ABC. Apart from that, you fly the B test and answer the questions (and more) - so the E is an achievement which should only be revoked by your peers. The assessment for examiner status involves a bit more than that, you have to take a candidate for a test (real or dummy run) as well as have done an amount of preparation, however even before that you are assessed by the club to see if you are the right sort of person for the role with the right attitude. You are also in effect being constantly assessed by the club to see if you are actually fulfilling the role in a suitable manner. It is entirely correct that if the club decides you are not then the role is removed. I suspect we will have to agree to disagree though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Symons - BMFA Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, Mike T said: So it's an achievement then?! No, its an appointment to a role within the Achievement Scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, Mike T said: So it's an achievement then?! I don't care what it's called Mike, don't see how it matters, matters how you conduct yourself, not which box I'm put in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 I don't see that there's a right or wrong here. You have been nominated by a club, assessed by an ACE and continue in the role while the club is happy for you to do so. It is you that has agreed to subject yourself to the process in (theoretically) full knowledge of this. Andy, if a currently ratified examiner was requested to be ratified by another club, would they move seamlessly or would they need to be retested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Andy Symons - BMFA said: I suspect we will have to agree to disagree though. Not entirely ? When I was tested, I was put forward by my Club's (then 3) examiners, along with two other guys. A 30-member Club ended up with 5 examiners who all knew what they were about. If they decided I no longer cut the mustard, I'd have accepted it (though I wouldn't have liked it...) Now, myself and one other are the only ones who are completely competent to judge (in terms of technical ability and knowledge). I take your point about the other factors though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Symons - BMFA Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, Martin Harris - Moderator said: Andy, if a currently ratified examiner was requested to be ratified by another club, would they move seamlessly or would they need to be retested? Seamless addition to the other club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zflyer Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 I think it should be run as an achievement, passed by a regional examiner and club examiner acting together. Committees can be cliquee and hold bias. It shouldn't happen but it does. Maybe it should be renewable after x years. The other issue is trying to get examiners and candidates together, in very similar vein to tutors. I know how difficult it is to arrange for both. It would be helpful if examiners could let clubs in their region know how far they would be prepared to travel to take tests. Candidates perhaps defraying travelling costs. An other suggestion would be for clubs to notify there regional examiner how many candidates they have and a joint date and location be arranged or even examiners stating perhaps a number of dates they would be available to conduct tests during the year. This can be hosted on the BMFA website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, Zflyer said: The other issue is trying to get examiners and candidates together, in very similar vein to tutors. I know how difficult it is to arrange for both. It would be helpful if examiners could let clubs in their region know how far they would be prepared to travel to take tests. Candidates perhaps defraying travelling costs. An other suggestion would be for clubs to notify there regional examiner how many candidates they have and a joint date and location be arranged or even examiners stating perhaps a number of dates they would be available to conduct tests during the year. This can be hosted on the BMFA website. Examiners' Workshops do just that. It's usual in my Area for any candidates to be put through after the Workshop (which usually takes the form of a very effective 'homologation' session). The main problem is lack of candidates. Our Club has an 'A' to solo' rule, but we've cut some slack over recent years and it's proving difficult to reel it in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Mike T said: Examiners' Workshops do just that. It's usual in my Area for any candidates to be put through after the Workshop (which usually takes the form of a very effective 'homologation' session). The main problem is lack of candidates. Our Club has an 'A' to solo' rule, but we've cut some slack over recent years and it's proving difficult to reel it in! Why is it proving difficult Mike ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 I suspect there'll be a number of "experienced" pilots in Mike's club who've never taken a test and find it "beneath" them to do so now. We've seen this attitude many times on the forum pages... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said: Why is it proving difficult Mike ? We've had a site change and it's taken time to get (and keep) the ground in good order. We were going to start tightening-up when Covid hit. The majority of our guys are foamy fliers now - all Bixlers, Twinstars, Phoenixs, etc., which are flown under 'distant supervision' (raw beginners get buddied - albeit with looong cables ? ). The only i.c. fliers are either As or Bs or buddied. We'll probably try and tighten up next summer. In fact, I think I'm going to start the ball rolling today... 13 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said: I suspect there'll be a number of "experienced" pilots who've never taken a test and find it "beneath" them to do so now. We've seen this attitude many times on the forum pages... Fortunately, not a problem we have! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Acland Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 It is when I threads such as this one that I remind myself that I actually build and fly R/C aircraft for the sheer enjoyment that I get from it as I have done for the last forty odd years without any achievement certificates. This I will continue to do, until I feel incapable of doing so, or someone tells me to stop. Achievement schemes are fine if one wants to take the test but in no way should they be mandatory, or as other people have said, a licence to fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Richard Many Clubs use the Achievement Scheme for other purposes. The Achievement Scheme is just that. You achieved a specific standard on a specific day. There is no requirement to maintain that standard. Many Clubs use the A test as a sign that a pilot is safe to fly solo. Other Clubs have their own test and some have no test other than someone in the Club saying that you are OK to fly solo. The Achievement Scheme, as you rightly point out, is not a licence. That is why we have had to have a form of testing imposed on those who don't have an A Certificate for the purposes of showing competence to the Dept of Transport that we can continue to fly a model aircraft. This is more to do with knowing the law and what you can and can't do than with the safe operation of the aircraft unless you wish to take the CAA test. Since the CAA test is aimed at multi rotor craft, the majority, or at least a very large number, of BMFA members would struggle as they don't have such a craft. The issue is not so much whether there should or shouldn't be an achievement scheme but rather how you award a pass for taking the test. Many Club Examiners were appointed when the Achievement Scheme was introduced and have never had a formal test to allow them to be a Club Examiner because none existed at the time. More importantly, has the modeller with the Certificate maintained his skill level so that, they feel confident enough to fly the test schedule at the drop of a hat. One could argue that motorists who passed their test 30 years ago would struggle to pass a test today. To which I would say, most drivers ought to be able to pass the practical driving test without a problem otherwise why do they consider themselves safe to drive on the road today? All of the standard BMFA Achievement Scheme Tests, i.e. fixed wing, helicopter, slope and thermal soaring have been in existence for many years. They were all incorporated into the BMFA Handbook but problems with updating the book lead to the creation of the Achievement Scheme Handbook and website. Sadly, a great many members, some of whom are Club Examiners, seem unaware of this despite much publicity in the shape of the BMFA News and various Road Shows by the Achievement Scheme Review Committee. Flying a radio controlled model aeroplane is potentially dangerous activity but one that has been made pretty safe by, amongst other factors, the Achievement Scheme. However, there will come a time when increased pressure on airspace usage in the UK will mean that something more formal will be demanded by the Govt of the day. This might be some sort of licence or authorisation to say that you are safe to fly. The BMFA could then put forward the AS Tests as a way of achieving that assurance for Govt. I'm not saying it will happen but I can see things leading to that requirement as greater use is made of the airspace below 400 ft. We also need to be aware of changes in Air Law, of which there has been a good deal lately. So, we have the situation whereby the BMFA is allowed to produce and conduct such testing by the Govt. Then comes the argument that some people are put off by taking tests. Well, that seems to be no excuse as regards taking the driving test. You either do or you don't drive - or at least, not legally. If you look through this thread, you will find erroneous assertions and people having to speak to BMFA staff when the answers are all in existing documentation. Some say, they are not prepared to waste time keeping up to date. The BMFA makes this as painless as possible by flagging any such changes through the medium of the BMFA News that all members get. You just need to read it to find out what's going on. If you cannot be prepared to read this bi-monthly communication well I'm saddened by that attitude. As many will have found out over the drone matter, there is no such thing as common sky as there is common land. The Govt own the sky and there is legislation regarding this. So, the message is clear. If we want to continue to exercise our privilege of flying model aircraft we must abide by such laws that are passed in this country - providing always that we have made our voices heard by Government on any proposed changes. This has been done admirably by the BMFA and we now have a system in place that is the envy of at least those in the USA and probably wider. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken anderson. Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 reading through the comments on this thread...i can understand why some model aircraft flyers are reluctant to try and achieve a certificate...... ken anderson...ne..1.................ex club examiner/my opinion dept. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 An A test is not that difficult for an experienced flier and shows the pilot to be "a safe" operator. Bad habits can creep in, the club safety officer should " delicately" offer advise. Repeated " bad flying, dangerously flying" should be stamped out, safe flying is no accident, a yellow card, red carb, 3 strikes and your out procedure could be adopted. Club members safety, public safety is very important. People have been killed in this hobby thru no fault of their own in the past. A young lad was hit in the back by an RC plane and died, many years ago. Safe flying is no accident. Think safety. If we don't, government will do something about it. CAA incident reporting now mandatory, so something is being done. We all have to be safety conscious, even "telling off " bad fluers, for everyone's benefit. I am returning to RC flying after a 20+ years break and consider myself a "tyro, beginner" again . I was ready for a B test back in the day, and recon with regular disciplined safe flying, will be back to being B test ready in 6 months. Crawl, walk,run then marathon... Safety first, all of us. As to idiot fliers, report them, they affect all of us. Would you report an idiot driver that compromised your safety ? If your a good safe flier, take the tests, it's not difficult. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted June 26, 2021 Author Share Posted June 26, 2021 41 minutes ago, ken anderson. said: reading through the comments on this thread...i can understand why some model aircraft flyers are reluctant to try and achieve a certificate...... ken anderson...ne..1.................ex club examiner/my opinion dept. I would be interested to hear your specific reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 (edited) Good grief, it's only an achievement scheme for self satisfaction within a hobby we participate in for enjoyment. Let's keep it (or should that be "return it") to that status. And let's keep it in perspective. Edited June 26, 2021 by PatMc 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, PatMc said: Good grief, it's only an achievement scheme for self satisfaction within a hobby we participate in for enjoyment. Let's keep it (or should that be "return it") to that status. And let's keep it in perspective. May be so, but imho it's good to have a piece of paper proving you have met a minimum standard and have the ability to fly safely, in the examiners opinion, just like a driving licence, mot test, GCSE or degree for that matter. You know what I mean. Some clubs have a rule that an A test pass is mandatory to be able to fly solo... Many people may say they can fly an RC model, but can they ? A bit of paper will take any doubt away, unless the bit of paper is 20 years old and they have not practised the hobby since they got the bit of paper. Safety first, safe flying is no accident remember. Who says they pass the minimum standard, an examiner....they are not god's, just experienced aeromodelers, RC fliers, who have seen a lot, crashes probably. There is no harm in raising the standard...be proactive, take the test and get the bit of paper....it's very liberating. Remember the A test is a basic standard, the real learning takes place after the A test. I may well have to retake an A test at the nearest club, so be it, it will not be a problem and I would/will not protest. The club will know within the first 1/4 of an hour if I have done RC flying before, and can do it safely.... Safety first. Edited June 26, 2021 by Rich Griff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 Good grief Peter it's supposed to be fun. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatMc Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rich Griff said: May be so, but imho it's good to have a piece of paper proving you have met a minimum standard and have the ability to fly safely, in the examiners opinion... It's a nice warm feeling but no more than a pat on the back from a fellow amateur. ...just like a driving licence, mot test, GCSE or degree for that matter. No it isn't at all like any of these. You know what I mean. Yes but I think you're under a delusion of the importance of the test(s). Some clubs have a rule that an A test pass is mandatory to be able to fly solo... That's their choice, not the achievement scheme purpose Many people may say they can fly an RC model, but can they ? Que? A bit of paper will take any doubt away, unless the bit of paper is 20 years old and they have not practised the hobby since they got the bit of paper. No it wont, no matter what age the paper is. Safety first, safe flying is no accident remember. So? Who says they pass the minimum standard, an examiner....they are not god's, just experienced aeromodelers, RC fliers, who have seen a lot, crashes probably. Fellow amateurs enjoying the same hobby. There is no harm in raising the standard... What evidence is there that the standard is raised ? be proactive, take the test and get the bit of paper....it's very liberating. I already have, in three categories as it happens ... it was satisfying but hardly "liberating". Remember the A test is a basic standard, the real learning takes place after the A test. Really ? Reply in quotes box. Edited June 26, 2021 by PatMc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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