BAN on Model gliding on Dartmoor

[Wookman]

It hasn't happened yet. But it will unless we take action.

The Dartmoor National Park Authority are in the process of updating the bylaws which govern the activities allowed within the National Park. They are for the most part just common sense written into a legal document, BUT...

Here is the current bylaw governing kite and model glider flying on the moor.

 

18 Kites and Model Aircraft

(i) No person shall fly a kite or model glider from the access land in such a manner as to give reasonable cause for annoyance to any other person or in such a manner as is likely to startle or disturb stock on the land.

(ii)No person shall release any power-driven model aircraft for flight or control the flight of such an aircraft on or over the access land unless he is authorised to do so by the Authority.

(iii) For the purpose of this byelaw “model aircraft” means an aircraft which either weighs not more than 5 kilograms without its fuel or is for the time being exempted (as a model aircraft) from provisions of the Air Navigation Order and “power driven” means driven by the combustion of petrol vapour or other combustible vapour or other combustible substances or by one or more electric motors.

 

I think it is safe to say that we all support this position.

Here are the proposed new bylaws that might come into force soon.

 

20 Kites, model aircraft and drones

(i) No person shall fly a kite from or over the Access Land in such a manner as to give reasonable cause for annoyance to any other person or in such a manner as is likely to startle or disturb stock or wildlife on the land.

(ii) No person shall launch any model aircraft or drone from the Access Land unless authorised to do so by the owner of the land and the Authority.

(iii) No person shall operate any model aircraft or drone over the Access Land at a height or location that may disturb stock or wildlife or cause a nuisance to another person.

 

Please note that model glider has been removed from clause (i) and that power driven has been removed from clause (ii).

This is effectively going to ban model gliding on Dartmoor as the process of obtaining permission from the land owner and the authority is going to be virtually impossible.

We need to act now. If we do not, slope soaring on Dartmoor could be banned by next spring.

There is a consultancy document out now https://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/about-us/who-we-are/byelaws-consultation 

Please take the time to look at it and fill it in.

If Dartmoor National Park Authority get away with this, how long will it be before all the other national parks follow suit and then the National Trust too?

[MattyB]

Have local flyers engaged the BMFA on this? I’d say that should be the first port of call, they have fought this kind of change successfully many times in the past.

[GrumpyGnome]

Responded!

 

Good advice Matty.

Edited September 24, 2021 by GrumpyGnome

[Wookman]

Our local area BMFA rep is in the loop.

[Cuban8]

Good luck with getting this sorted out, hopefully good sense and proportionality suitable  to what I'm sure are very small risks to people/livestock/property and not being a nuisance will work out for those who fly at the site.

Amazes me that in so many cases where an activity, not particularly aeromodelling, can be carried out for years and often decades, and then all of a sudden someone in 'authority, decides it has become a problem and needs to be kicked out.

[Wookman]

Please take the time to fill in the survey (10 mins). Slope soaring has been happening on the moor since the 1960's. 

[Alan Gorham_]

Am I reading this wrong, or does the proposed updated bylaw simply require model flyers to obtain permission before flying? It's not an outright ban.

[Wookman]

To the letter you are right. But it is a fundamental change to the bylaw. At the moment you or anybody can take a model glider and fly responsibly on the moor.

If the bylaw is allowed to be changed it effectively becomes a ban. There is no mechanism for seeking specific permission and you can imagine how difficult it will be made to get the land owner's and the Authority's permission. 

Rest assured this is an erosion of the rights of use for the moor whether by accident or on purpose. If it gets through unchanged it will be the thin end of a long, wide wedge.

[Alan Gorham_]

It's just that I organised waterplane events on a reservoir owned by a water company for several years. I had to obtain specific permissions both from the water company and the Forestry Commission (for road access) which was never a problem as the staff involved in both organisations were engaged and supportive. I had to establish the "mechanism for seeking specific permission2 from scratch but once done, things were trivial thereafter.

 

Perhaps a loose association of regular flyers could organise such a permission.

 

If you want to say that it is an erosion of rights, then I suppose you could argue that the CAA OPID is also an erosion of rights, but it has also proved to be a trivial process to comply with and not worry about in order to keep enjoying a hobby?

Edited September 24, 2021 by Alan Gorham_

[Wookman]

Whilst I accept what you are saying may well be right, the change to the bylaw is significant. 

The organising of permission for specific event could be made straight forward enough as you have demonstrated.

Slope soaring however is much more ad hoc as you can imagine. 

If we are going to organise a blanket permission to go gliding as and when wind and weather permit, why not keep it written into the bylaw, as it is now?

[Alan Gorham_]

I've also been a member of the North Yorks Moors Ridge Soaring club who have sole permission to fly at the Hole of Horcum near Pickering. They obtain a license from the landowner and dedicated insurance (the landowner does not accept BMFA insurance AIUI). This isn't a blanket permission, it being subject to review and negotiation.

 

I suspect I gives the landowner assurance that users of the land meet certain conditions and that they are able to negotiate with a known association.

 

I wasn't suggesting blanket permission: the two examples that I have given you keep the option of the landowner reserved to make any changes they see fit and did require regular negotiation.

 

I was really pointing out that this is not the end of the world and is not a ban.

[MattyB]

2 hours ago, Cuban8 said:

Good luck with getting this sorted out, hopefully good sense and proportionality suitable  to what I'm sure are very small risks to people/livestock/property and not being a nuisance will work out for those who fly at the site.

Amazes me that in so many cases where an activity, not particularly aeromodelling, can be carried out for years and often decades, and then all of a sudden someone in 'authority, decides it has become a problem and needs to be kicked out.

 

The generally raised profile of UAS' in the past few years and increasing legislation has undoubtedly led to landowners and authorites consulting their lawyers for a view on their liability should something happen on their land. In many cases this is just a knee jerk reaction i.e. it's easier to ban the activity than allow it to go ahead under specific restrictions that anyone enforcing the byelaw will have to know and understand.

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Alan Gorham_ said:

It's just that I organised waterplane events on a reservoir owned by a water company for several years. I had to obtain specific permissions both from the water company and the Forestry Commission (for road access) which was never a problem as the staff involved in both organisations were engaged and supportive. I had to establish the "mechanism for seeking specific permission from scratch but once done, things were trivial thereafter.

 

Perhaps a loose association of regular flyers could organise such a permission.

 

Yes that could and does work in other places, but at the end of the day under these proposed changes if a landowner doesn't want flying to happen all they have to do is ignore requests for negotiations. That is definitely an erosion of rights compared to what is allowed currently on Dartmoor.

 

1 hour ago, Alan Gorham_ said:

If you want to say that it is an erosion of rights, then I suppose you could argue that the CAA OPID is also an erosion of rights, but it has also proved to be a trivial process to comply with and not worry about in order to keep enjoying a hobby?

 

The requirement for an Op ID itself may not be an erosion of rights, but the collective set of legislation passed in the last 5 years definitely is - jsut look at the limits on how close we can legally fly to persons and proprty not under our control. Also remember the current laws are not the proposed endgame, there are plenty more challenges to come in the coming years around topics such as mandatory remote ID etc.

[Alan Gorham_]

2 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

Yes that could and does work in other places, but at the end of the day under these proposed changes if a landowner doesn't want flying to happen all they have to do is ignore requests for negotiations. That is definitely an erosion of rights compared to what is allowed currently on Dartmoor.

 

You have zero evidence that the landowner will refuse to grant permissions in future.

[MattyB]

I never claimed I had. All I said is that at present they don't have the right to prevent unpowered flight on Dartmoor if it is conducted in line with the byelaws, whereas if these changes go ahead by default flying will only be allowed if permission (to be negotiated) is given. They may be accomodating or they may not. By the same measure you have zero evidence that the landowner will grant permission in the future, so we are square! ?

[Peter Christy]

Looking at both the existing and proposed new regulations, I think the authority is exceeding its - er - authority.

 

My understanding is that landowners have no control over the airspace above their property. That is the province of the CAA. By trying to regulate what can fly over their land, even if it was launched from outside their area, they are trespassing on the authority of the CAA.

 

I think they need reminding that they are NOT the CAA, which already has more than ample regulations in place to prevent nuisance from ANY aircraft.

 

Yes, I will be responding to the proposals. I will also be writing to the Secretary for Transport, copying in my MP, pointing out this attempt to usurp CAA authority.

 

--

Pete

 

[Devon Slopes]

Folks,

 

those of us who fly on Dartmoor need all the help we can get here, so aside from filling in the form Wookman has pointed you to, could I ask for two more forms of help?

 

1) Can you say if you know of other national parks and similar which allow model gliders?  If we can say this would leave Dartmoor out on a limb could help us.  I know North York Moors allow it, and there is an arrangement for the Long Mynd (with the National Trust).  Is it still allowed in the Peak Park?  What about elsewhere?

 

2) Any advice from folks who who have fought similar battles would be welcome.  As has been said above the BMFA are aware, but what else has worked in the past?

 

Thank-you

 

Devon

[Devon Slopes]

And we have quite strong evidence that the Park Authority will not give us permission to fly gliders if they take this power.  Currently they could give permission for drones within the byelaws, but actually use them to impose a blanket ban... 

 

"We do not give permission for any recreation flying of drones on common land."

 

(see https://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/enjoy-dartmoor/outdoor-activities/drones-and-model-aircraft, which also erroneously gives the impression that all model flying is banned without permission).

 

So please, please help us stop the Dartmoor Park Authority having the unilateral right to ban us by helping out as I outlined in the post immediately above. 

[J D 8]

  Reading between the lines it looks to me the main problem has been the parking overnight by caravans and camper wagons willy nilly  all over the place  [ same here in Pembs NP]  and some one has decided to lump model flyers in and take total control.    

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Devon Slopes said:

Folks,

 

those of us who fly on Dartmoor need all the help we can get here, so aside from filling in the form Wookman has pointed you to, could I ask for two more forms of help?

 

1) Can you say if you know of other national parks and similar which allow model gliders?  If we can say this would leave Dartmoor out on a limb could help us.  I know North York Moors allow it, and there is an arrangement for the Long Mynd (with the National Trust).  Is it still allowed in the Peak Park?  What about elsewhere?

 

2) Any advice from folks who who have fought similar battles would be welcome.  As has been said above the BMFA are aware, but what else has worked in the past?

 

Despite some vehement anti-drone content on the NT website, the BMFA still have an agreement with them that covers unpowered flight at their sites, though that normally requires a club or association to hold a license with them these days.

 

For info on flying in the Peaks I would suggest you contact the SSA and the Leek and Moorland Club. There have been issues at Callow Bank in the recent past, but this post from 2020 indicates there is still access, and there are lots of sites in the Peaks that have been used for a long time.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by MattyB

[Wookman]

On 24/09/2021 at 07:40, Wookman said:

We need to act now. If we do not, slope soaring on Dartmoor could be banned by next spring.

There is a consultancy document out now https://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/about-us/who-we-are/byelaws-consultation 

Please take the time to look at it and fill it in.

If Dartmoor National Park Authority get away with this, how long will it be before all the other national parks follow suit and then the National Trust too?

 

Please grab a coffee and fill in the survey in the link above.

[MattyB]

On 25/09/2021 at 07:42, Wookman said:

 

Please grab a coffee and fill in the survey in the link above.

I have done, but tbh I am always sceptical of these type of “consultations”; they are normally carried out just so they can say they did so. I wish you success, but suspect it will be the behind the scenes negotiations that the BMFA can hopefully assist with that are most likely to bear fruit.

[Geoff S]

It seems it's not only gliding they want to restrict.  There was an article in today's Observer saying they also want to ban or severely restrict wild camping.  As someone who loved lightweight camping when younger I find that equally disturbing.  I can understand attempting to control irresponsible camping but most people just like to enjoy the isolation and leave nothing behind to spoil it for others.  Much like glider flying doesn't impinge on anyone's quiet enjoyment of wild places (such as they are in England - the rules are much more liberal in Scotland)

 

Geoff

[Wookman]

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

I have done, but tbh I am always sceptical of these type of “consultations”; they are normally carried out just so they can say they did so. I wish you success, but suspect it will be the behind the scenes negotiations that the BMFA can hopefully assist with that are most likely to bear fruit.

 

Thanks MattyB. I have a feeling you may be right but filling the survey can't hurt. Manny Williamson is on it now so fingers crossed.

 

[Wookman]

49 minutes ago, Geoff S said:

It seems it's not only gliding they want to restrict.  There was an article in today's Observer saying they also want to ban or severely restrict wild camping.  As someone who loved lightweight camping when younger I find that equally disturbing.  I can understand attempting to control irresponsible camping but most people just like to enjoy the isolation and leave nothing behind to spoil it for others.  Much like glider flying doesn't impinge on anyone's quiet enjoyment of wild places (such as they are in England - the rules are much more liberal in Scotland)

 

There a good number of changes in the new bylaws. Something in there to upset almost everybody. Interesting that seems to be nothing on recreational horse riding.