Transitioning to a low carbon life

[MattyB]

Following on from this thread where a few of us started to talk about alternative energy and heating tech, this is a chat thread for anyone on the journey to a low carbon home and lifestyle.
 

Are you thinking about installing some of this new tech? Do you already have solar thermal or solar PV (photovoltaic)? Interested in heat pump technology? Maybe you just want to be able to charge your lipid for some of grid adventures…. If so tell us about it here! 

[MattyB]

This is a great series of videos on the subject (courtesy of Fully Charged, the YouTube channel led by Tobert Llewelyn aka Kryten from Red Dearf!). It introduces a whole load of interesting tech - well worth a watch.
 

Part 1:

 

 

 

 

[leccyflyer]

28 minutes ago, MattyB said:

Following on from this thread where a few of us started to talk about alternative energy and heating tech, this is a chat thread for anyone on the journey to a low carbon home and lifestyle.
 

Are you thinking about installing some of this new tech? Do you already have solar thermal or solar PV (photovoltaic)? Interested in heat pump technology? Maybe you just want to be able to charge your lipid for some of grid adventures…. If so tell us about it here! 

My workshop conversion that was completed between the lockdowns uses an air source heat pump and an excess of efficient insulation to provide a comfortable environment in a large space within half of our outbuildings. We'd intended to extend the system to the other half of the outbuildings, but the lockdown scuppered that.

 

I'm delighted with the system, it has hugely exceeded my expectations. The temperature control in the workshop and storage area is excellent, with the radiators on the lowest setting and the system has plenty of excess capacity to extend and add more radiators in the rest of the buildings. The key really is in the insulation though -which has the opposite benefit in the summer with super stable temperatures. That hugely reduces the amount of energy needed.

 

Originally we wanted a ground source heat pump and underfloor heating, but when we investigated further it became apparent that the air source heat pump and wet radiators was the better option, since it didn't require major structural work in digging up a perfectly serviceable concrete floor over a very large area. I was sceptical, but the system has worked very well in the first year of operation.

[MattyB]

On 02/10/2021 at 21:20, leccyflyer said:

My workshop conversion that was completed between the lockdowns uses an air source heat pump and an excess of efficient insulation to provide a comfortable environment in a large space within half of our outbuildings. We'd intended to extend the system to the other half of the outbuildings, but the lockdown scuppered that.

 

I'm delighted with the system, it has hugely exceeded my expectations. The temperature control in the workshop and storage area is excellent, with the radiators on the lowest setting and the system has plenty of excess capacity to extend and add more radiators in the rest of the buildings. The key really is in the insulation though -which has the opposite benefit in the summer with super stable temperatures. That hugely reduces the amount of energy needed.

 

Originally we wanted a ground source heat pump and underfloor heating, but when we investigated further it became apparent that the air source heat pump and wet radiators was the better option, since it didn't require major structural work in digging up a perfectly serviceable concrete floor over a very large area. I was sceptical, but the system has worked very well in the first year of operation.

 

That is very good to hear. I had originally thought that with a relatively large garden ground source would be our choice, but apparently it's rarely the best option in a retrofit - you need a lot of space (more even than we have), it's very disruptive requiring plant access to your back garden, and the trenches/boreholes can't be too near the foundations. As a result I suspect we will go the air source route too, though as you say we need to get the insulation fully topped up first. Apparently an 11-12kw unit should be enough if we are well insulated, but only a full house survey will confirm that for sure.

 

On the topic of insulation I had been looking at Icynene open cell spray foam insulation for the roof - it's more effective than traditional methods, widely used in Canada in very cold climates, is net zero carbon (it's caster oil based!) and non-toxic since it can be sprayed using only water and pressurised air. However, there is a big problem - because it all but seals your roof space (it is supposed to be breathable, but it's difficult to see how that can truly be the case and it be a super effective insulator) surveyors hate it. They are worried that it will increase condensation, particularly within the matrix of the foam next to the beams, which would then be more vulnerable to rot.

 

Providers unsurprisingly say it works fine and point to 30 years of use in Canada, but the vast majority of mortgage lenders here wont lend on any house with spray foam insulation be it closed or open cell. From the research I've done I suspect the wetting/rot issue is pretty unlikely, but I don't fancy taking the risk that a mortgage lender would condemn the roof if they found it up there, so we are going back to the drawing board and installing lots of traditional insulation instead.

Edited October 3, 2021 by MattyB

[J D 8]

           That castor based stuff will be fine in a very cold climate where for most of the winter the temp is below zero

    Any leak in a roof taking in water between the beams and foam would freeze and stabilise resulting in no rot. Any that did get in would dry out in the summer.  Wood does not mind getting wet, but stay wet as would happen here and the rot would soon set in.

[MattyB]

From the original thread, a question from @Cuban8...

 

On 02/10/2021 at 14:30, MattyB said:

We are currently starting on the process of greening our home - should have extra insulation by Xmas, solar PV and solar thermal next year (depending on what they do with the RHI), and an air source heat pump to replace the gas boiler within 3 years. We will probably swap one of the cars for an EV next year too. Zero carbon is the target within 5 years.

 

1 hour ago, Cuban8 said:

Have you worked out the payback time for such a large investment? Just curious.

 

Good question. Anyone who tells you these technologies will definitively pay back in xyz timescale is having you on unless they have a crystal energy price ball, but think of it this way... Look at what has happened to energy prices this autumn, and the sheer inconvenience of the issues at the pumps in the last week or two. Does it seem likely that this will be the last supply chain issue we will have, and that energy prices will stabilise in the long term? That sounds far fetched to me, particularly given the climate change agenda is going to have to pick up pace to meet global CO2 goals. A lot of our nuclear power is also disappearing from the grid in the next 10 years which is only going to push prices one way and mean in the short term the UK becomes more dependent on gas, not less.

 

There is no doubt that green home tech is relatively expensive at the moment compared to a gas boiler, though solar PV has come down a lot in recent years so payback there should be much shorter, maybe 7-10 years. Ultimately I am looking at it rather differently to a pure payback proposition - we have a relatively large property that we want to live in for at least the next 30 years, so I want the security of supply that a decent % of home generation brings and the reassurance that the house won't become an energy "millstone" during that period. Following a recent redundancy we are in a financial position to do this now; I was going to buy a large shiny new EV to "do my bit" ?, but in reality I'm doing so few miles in my new (work from home) job that doing the house seems to make more sense. It might have a relatively long 12-15 year payback for the whole system, but compared with the car that I haven't bought it is a way better investment (the EV we buy next year will be a lot smaller and probably secondhand).

[MattyB]

Information on the Clean Heat Grant which is due to replace the RHI scheme in April 2022... In summary, simpler (grant based, does not require as much overall system assessment, only applies to heat pump installs) but probably a fair bit less generous.

 

Heat pump video...

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by MattyB

[MattyB]

...and then there is this doc from the Government on the Clean Heat Grant - as clear as mud, sadly!

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by MattyB

[kevin b]

I read this thread's title and thought it was about teenage males.

Then I realised I had the words mixed up.

[J D 8]

 You are in your house a whole lot more than the car.

[Tim Kearsley]

We've just placed an order for a 4kW solar panels installation plus 5.2kWh battery.  We've had a Tesla EV for a year and now we're looking for the best electricity tariff to optimise the vehicle charging and load-shifting that a solar battery enables.  At the moment Octopus Go is looking favourite.  Calculations indicate a payback on the solar/battery install around 12 years but that's not really the driver for me.   We're at a time of life where lots of capital earning next to nothing isn't that important and we'd rather use some of it to insulate ourselves from what is likely to become a volatile energy market.  Plus I want to minimise my contribution to climate change.

[Nigel R]

The first big change for us on energy use would be the kids growing up and moving out external wall insulation. The front of our house is solid wall and not exactly the warmest of environments. Fine when we are running the fire or CH, but quickly saps the heat. Next best change would be switching out the coal boiler (!)

 

[MattyB]

19 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said:

We've just placed an order for a 4kW solar panels installation plus 5.2kWh battery.  We've had a Tesla EV for a year and now we're looking for the best electricity tariff to optimise the vehicle charging and load-shifting that a solar battery enables.  At the moment Octopus Go is looking favourite.  Calculations indicate a payback on the solar/battery install around 12 years but that's not really the driver for me.   We're at a time of life where lots of capital earning next to nothing isn't that important and we'd rather use some of it to insulate ourselves from what is likely to become a volatile energy market.  Plus I want to minimise my contribution to climate change.

 

That's exactly where we are too - I could pay down some of the mortgage instead, but it just feels right to act now and start insulating and generating in order to offset some of the inevitable price rises that will happen in the medium/long term. We're all going to have to do it at some point, I would rather not be part of a stampede as future deadlines approach....

[Tim Kearsley]

Just now, MattyB said:

 

That's exactly where we are too - I could pay down some of the mortgage instead, but it just feels right to act now and start insulating and generating in order to offset some of the inevitable price rises that will happen in the medium/long term. We're all going to have to do it at some point, I would rather not be part of a stampede as future deadlines approach....

Yep, totally agree.  We're fortunate in that we haven't had a mortgage for a few years now,  so we're in the situation where we have capital spread among a few accounts and earning almost nothing.  So it seemed reasonable to use some of it to reduce our outgoings as well as reducing our day to day carbon dioxide output.  Mind you, now that I've ordered solar that will be the signal for the UK weather to descend into ten years of continous cloud cover! 

[Steve Colman]

The Green Thing

Sorry, don't know another way of posting a PDF

 

 

We Didnt Have the Green Thing.pdf

Edited October 5, 2021 by Steve Colman

[MattyB]

8 minutes ago, Steve Colman said:

The Green Thing

Sorry, don't know another way of posting a PDF

 

Nice, I quite like it though I am not sure energy generation was very green back then and the appliances that did exist were pretty inefficient. Cut and paste below...

 

We Didn't Have the "Green Thing" Back In My Day

 

In the line at the store, the cashier told the older woman that plastic bags weren't good for the environment. The woman apologized to her and explained, we didn't have the "green thing" back in my day.

 

That's right, they didn't have the "green thing" in her day. Back then, they returned their milk bottles, Coke bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, using the same bottles over and over. So they really were recycled. But they didn't have the "green thing" back in her day.

 

In her day, they walked up stairs, because they didn't have an escalator in every store and office building. They walked to the grocery store and didn't climb into a 300- horsepower machine every time they had to go two blocks. But she's right. They didn't have the "green thing" in her day.

 

Back then, they washed the baby's diapers because they didn't have the throw-away kind? They dried clothes on a line, not in an energy gobbling machine burning up 220 volts wind and solar power really did dry the clothes. Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.? But that old lady is right, they didn't have the "green thing" back in her day.

 

Back then, they had one TV, or radio, in the house not a TV in every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a pizza dish, not a screen the size of the state of Montana. In the kitchen, they blended and stirred by hand because they didn't have electric machines to do everything for you. When they packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, they used wadded up newspaper to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap.

 

Back then, they didn't fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut the lawn. They used a push mower that ran on human power. They exercised by working so they didn't need to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity. But she's right, they didn't have the "green thing" back then.

 

They drank from a fountain when they were thirsty, instead of using a cup or a plastic bottle every time they had a drink of water. They refilled pens with ink, instead of buying a new pen, and they replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull. But they didn't have the "green thing" back then.

 

Back then, people took the streetcar and kids rode their bikes to school or rode the school bus instead of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service. They had one electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances. And they didn't need a computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites 2,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest pizza joint.

 

But that old lady is right. They didn't have the "green thing" back in her day. Gee!!! That was MY day too!

 

Anonymous

Edited October 5, 2021 by MattyB

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Yep, back in my day, did a milk round as a kid, I washed those bottles as well.

No fish in T'rivers, polluted, floaters in the Sea, polluted, smog you could spread on yer bread, polluted, good old days.

[Steve Colman]

Thanks MattyB

[kevin b]

53 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Yep, back in my day, did a milk round as a kid, I washed those bottles as well.

No fish in T'rivers, polluted, floaters in the Sea, polluted, smog you could spread on yer bread, polluted, good old days.

Nothing changed much then, apart from not being able to see the smog (it's still there though).

Now however, we have the added bonus of drugs and plastic in the rivers and illegal immigrants in the sea.

[J D 8]

 Sadly the other day a small river not far from me became contaminated with farm slurry killing the fish, lovely sea trout called Sewin. Something that has never happened before. Some of you may have read about in the papers as cleb Griff Rhys Jones is a neighbour and wrote up a two page article about the incident.

 Thirty years ago there were some thirty three dairy farms in the parish, the pressure on the land was small and pollution incidents unknown.  Now there are just three very large ones the result of big business pressure to produce more for less with the idea that bigger is always better. Cows live in all year around and there is so much more slurry to deal with instead of it falling naturally to the ground or being spread by the farmer as a semi solid from an old type muck spreader. 

           As for global trading just do not get me started about the untold damage it is doing.

[IDD15]

We've had solar panels since 2012 and they've been very good. For anyone thinking of getting them fitted I strongly advise you to get bird/vermin guards fitted around the panels when they are installed. We had a pigeon infestation last year and with all the mess that caused it cost nearly £700 to have the guards retro fitted and everything cleaned up. Not nice.

 

HTH

idd

 

[IDD15]

Another useful video I've found on home energy tech.

 

 

EVM Home Energy

 

Cheers

idd

[MattyB]

Reviving this long time dormant thread, we now have 5KW solar PV with a hybrid inverter and an 8KWh home battery installed, and it's awesome. Current payback estimates are around 7.5-8 years, and we are generating nearly 3x what we use for (approximately) 7-8 months a year, and should still cover our home usage for anhther 2 months, making us electricity independent for around 10 months per year.  It did prove a little tricky to get the setup right initially, but it's now been running for nearly a year without any issues, and the solar performance is slightly better than the installers initial calculations. We've also moved onto the newish Octopus Flux tariff to get better export rates and some reduced import rates 0200-0500 each day which we can use to charge the battery in winter.

 

As used EV prices have fallen back to more realistic levels recently I've also been looking at changing one of our cars (10 year old Passat estate and 13 year old Jazz) to use some of the spare generation. In the end as it was a big diesel that had generated a couple of nasty bills recently I decided t ochange the Passat for.... another Passat! This one is the petrol PHEV GTE variant though, and it's a lovely car to drive whilst not having the compromises of a pure EV on longer journeys. It seems to be working well with the Zappi (solar aware) home charger, and yesterday on a mixed run of ~45 miles it averaged ~110mpg, so it should be very economical to run.

 

I did really want to go for a pure EV, but at the end of the day I couldn't make the numbers work - going this route means we can afford to replace the Jazz next year with a pure (150 mile range) EV for all our local and medium range trips (Leaf, e208, Zoe etc). That will cut our carbon emissions further, especially as it will help make the make the most of any excess solar we generate (having two cars with a battery will mean we pretty much always have one on the drive available to charge from any excess being generated).

 

Once I've got the off peak charging and interaction with the home battery sorted (I don't want it to dump into the EV each time I charge it), I'm also going to investigate opening up our charger for use by local people by using Co Charger or a similar service. This will help pay back the upfront investment in the charger and hopefully means more people in the village will think about going for an EV or PHEV car. Interesting times!

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by MattyB

[Learner]

Been thinking about different forms of propelling a new car purchase for a while now.

Dont have the benefit of solar panels and probably never will have.

Dont do many miles now being retired.

Phevs and ev's still too expensive new and so bought petrol.

 

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

That will cut our carbon emissions further

 

Buying two new cars, which needed manufacturing and transporting etc, will cut emissions? Electric and hybrid cars are particularly filthy to manufacture when it comes to carbon due to the batteries, and keeping the older cars running would have been 'greener'. That said, if the old cars are at the end of their life it makes sense to do what you have done. Local pollution in your town/city will be reduced and improve overall air quality locally. Its not likely to do much for the climate though unfortunately as there are far bigger fish to fry there. 

 

To be clear, i am not trying to poo poo what you are doing. Its just that you save all of the carbon emitted during the manufacture of a product you dont buy and they dont build. So keeping an existing car going until its end of life is better for the planet as a whole. 

 

Like Learner, my next car will be petrol, but one of the newest and most economical ones i can afford at the time once my 2015 skoda snuffs it. I do not have the infrastructure to support anything electric and the way i use my car i would see no advantage out from a hybrid as they are best on start/stop short trips. 

 

With your plug in i would recommend it lives outside or in a detached garage, just in case it decides to catch fire you do not want it in a garage connected to your house. Its certainly very unlikely to be a problem, but given the magnitude of the disaster should it go wrong i would leave it on the drive.