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Examiners 2022 and beyond.


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Not sure what you're disagreeing about!  I'm agreeing that there may be good reasons why an examiner hasn't flown/attended/promoted the scheme regularly during the past year.

 

Ability to fly the schedule?  One that I don't consider to be as black and white as the ASRC committee may have decided but a decision that I can respect.  Certainly an examiner displaying poor standards of flying or operation will not command any respect and would bring the scheme into disrepute but there could be exceptional circumstances which wouldn't mean that a non-regularly flying examiner wasn't capable of testing a candidate fairly. Maybe this is why the club is allowed an element of discretion?

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3 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Not sure what you're disagreeing about!  I'm agreeing that there may be good reasons why an examiner hasn't flown/attended/promoted the scheme regularly during the past year.

 

Ability to fly the schedule?  One that I don't consider to be as black and white as the ASRC committee may have decided but a decision that I can respect.  Certainly an examiner displaying poor standards of flying or operation will not command any respect and would bring the scheme into disrepute but there could be exceptional circumstances which wouldn't mean that a non-regularly flying examiner wasn't capable of testing a candidate fairly. Maybe this is why the club is allowed an element of discretion?

 

Quite simple why I disagree, It set a criteria then allows it be be set aside, that's very clear, talk of circumstances impacting are not there. Can you do the job or not seems the jist of the criteria.

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2 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

 

Quite simple why I disagree, It set a criteria then allows it be be set aside, that's very clear, talk of circumstances impacting are not there. Can you do the job or not seems the jist of the criteria.

 

The club has a measure of discretion but is given clear guidelines - and possibly more importantly - easily defined reasons for NOT ratifying a failing examiner.

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1 hour ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

 

Quite simple why I disagree, It set a criteria then allows it be be set aside, that's very clear, talk of circumstances impacting are not there. Can you do the job or not seems the jist of the criteria.

It isn't a set criteria, ultimately it is up to the club who are much better aware of the circumstances at their club and of the examiner in question. The 3 questions are simply a guide of what may be considered appropriate to prompt club committees to think whether an examiner is still suitable rather than just ticking a box for them to carry on which we know has happened for some for many years.

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9 minutes ago, Andy Symons - BMFA said:

It isn't a set criteria, ultimately it is up to the club who are much better aware of the circumstances at their club and of the examiner in question. The 3 questions are simply a guide of what may be considered appropriate to prompt club committees to think whether an examiner is still suitable rather than just ticking a box for them to carry on which we know has happened for some for many years.

 

Thanks Andy, I can live with that reply.

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I too had problems uploading the certificate to the site and could only do it in PDF format but it seems to have been accepted OK (I am not an office worker type doing this all day).

I failed at the first attempt, finding some of the questions rather ambiguous

What I do not understand is that the cert. is until 2026 but we are expected to do it every year. With the considerable amount of my time having been taken already I shall be very inclined to knock this on the head. Our other examiner says he may not even bother at all, don`t blame him. I can see many others taking the same attitude after many years of service to clubs, all voluntary.

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12 minutes ago, Martin McIntosh said:

I too had problems uploading the certificate to the site and could only do it in PDF format but it seems to have been accepted OK (I am not an office worker type doing this all day).

I failed at the first attempt, finding some of the questions rather ambiguous

What I do not understand is that the cert. is until 2026 but we are expected to do it every year. With the considerable amount of my time having been taken already I shall be very inclined to knock this on the head. Our other examiner says he may not even bother at all, don`t blame him. I can see many others taking the same attitude after many years of service to clubs, all voluntary.

I could not agree more Martin.

 

How many changes to Article 16 are there likely to be?

 

I printed out a copy of the document for reference purposes, which I am happy to update and comes with me to the patch every time should I need to refer to it. (Never, so far).

 

Why not just dish out amendments as / when, as per the BMFA Handbook?.

 

As our only active club examiner, I have rather painted myself into a corner with this issue.

 

If it was not for the fact that I am needed to test club members (Learners are on the lead until passing their "A"), then I would bin it as well.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Andy Symons - BMFA said:

Simply because there may be changes to the test every year and it is very important that examiners are up to date with the regulations. Is it really such an imposition?

So why not do it the easy way and send out amendments, instead of going through the whole pallava of another annual test / upload etc?

 

In October it was valid for five years, and now its only valid for one year?.

 

Very odd.

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1 minute ago, SIMON CRAGG said:

So why not do it the easy way and send out amendments, instead of going through the whole pallava of another annual test / upload etc?

 

In October it was valid for five years, and now its only valid for one year?.

 

Very odd.

There have been 3 changes in 2021. So who knows how many going forward. For the purposes of an individual complying with the requirements of Article 16 it is valid for 5 years. However for ensuring examiners remain up to date having passed the test in the previous 12 months is a pragmatic way of doing this. Issuing amendments does not guarantee an examiner has read them and kept themselves up to date. Having looked at the test attempts over the 24 hours it is good that we have prompted examiners to ensure they are up to date.

If there are only a few changes in a year it shouldn't be at all difficult passing the test and the link provided in the email makes getting the certificate uploaded super easy.

 

We appreciate that examiners are volunteers and we have done everything we can to find the right balance and to not put too many impositions on examiners but still manage to ensure they are up to date.

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4 minutes ago, SIMON CRAGG said:

In October it was valid for five years, and now its only valid for one year?.

 

As I was typing this Andy has replied explaining the five year / one year validity query.

 

You think that is strange Simon? Well yesterday morning's letter (quoted at the start of this thread) clearly states that 'three specific questions' need to be answered in the affirmative to prove that a club examiner is current and suitable, yet yesterday evening in his post, Andy stated that the questions 'are simply a guide'. Not so specific after all then?

 

These changes were announced and discussed during the recent BMFA online presentation (November 9th, and available to view on YouTube), if anyone hasn't watched that yet it would be worth them doing so, as it does explain a little of the reasoning behind the changes for 2022.

 

Unfortunately, in between the announcement in the Novermber 9th presentation and the issuing of the letter yesterday, the 'three specific questions' had changed a bit...

 

As Martin pointed out, passing the latest RCC test isn't particularly difficult but understanding some of the questions can be challenging.

 

Brian.

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9 minutes ago, RottenRow said:

You think that is strange Simon? Well yesterday morning's letter (quoted at the start of this thread) clearly states that 'three specific questions' need to be answered in the affirmative to prove that a club examiner is current and suitable, yet yesterday evening in his post, Andy stated that the questions 'are simply a guide'. Not so specific after all then?

Hi Brian

 

the letter does not say, or at least I can't find where it does, that the questions need to be answered in the affirmative to prove the examiner is current and suitable. If that was the case there would not be the option to ratify them after one in teh negative.

 

The letter actually states

 

However, the form now asks three specific questions. The questions are:-

1) Has this examiner been a regular flyer at your club flying site over the previous 12 months?

2) Is this examiner still able to demonstrate the 'B' certificate flight to a good standard for the discipline(s) you are ratifying them?

3) Has this examiner been actively promoting the achievement scheme within your club over the previous 12 months?

These questions are intended to act as a useful prompt to secretaries...

If a secretary answers 'no' to any of these questions, the system them presents them with three options; 

1) Ratify as a club examiner

2) De-ratify as a club examiner

3) Retiring, please award E(Ret) status - with the associated 'Certificate of Appreciation'

 

It does not say at any point

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The RCC is really not a big deal. I tend to keep up to date with things as all club examiners should do, whether a particular examiner is run ragged with regular testing or in the case of some clubs, a quiet life where there are few new flyers or others don't wish to progress beyond their 'A'. The achievement scheme can be promoted as much as you like, but you can't force people into doing something that they simply don't wish to do beyond what is absolutely needed e.g. an 'A' to fly solo in many clubs. The achievement part doesn't appear on most club flyers' radars.

Depending on local circumstances, It's not impossible that a perfectly able and capable club examiner might only be called to do an occasional test and then have an extended period before another newcomer to the hobby joins their club and eventually asks to do his 'A' - so I think we need to be careful about getting a tad overzealous with labelling some examiners as 'inactive'. Clubs would be the best arbiter of this as has been said, rather than the number of examination forms that an examiner might submit if that was ever to be considered.

I wonder what the age demographic is for club examiners? I'm guessing, but I'd estimate that it's mainly 50+ or even a bit older and with fewer younger people coming into the hobby or starting much later in life, or those that just tend to give model flying a go for a while and then jump to something else, a source of long experienced modellers with the right mindset ideal to be examiners will begin to dwindle. Where will we be then? Naturally, we need new and younger people in all parts of the hobby, but please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

BTW, When I saw the the new requirement for examiners, I took the test there and then and passed it without any need to mug up on it. You might need to repeat it now and again.....so what? A lot of over-thinking going on IMHO.

Edited by Cuban8
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8 minutes ago, Andy Symons - BMFA said:

Hi Brian

 

the letter does not say, or at least I can't find where it does, that the questions need to be answered in the affirmative to prove the examiner is current and suitable. If that was the case there would not be the option to ratify them after one in teh negative.

 

The letter actually states

 

However, the form now asks three specific questions. The questions are:-

1) Has this examiner been a regular flyer at your club flying site over the previous 12 months?

2) Is this examiner still able to demonstrate the 'B' certificate flight to a good standard for the discipline(s) you are ratifying them?

3) Has this examiner been actively promoting the achievement scheme within your club over the previous 12 months?

These questions are intended to act as a useful prompt to secretaries...

If a secretary answers 'no' to any of these questions, the system them presents them with three options; 

1) Ratify as a club examiner

2) De-ratify as a club examiner

3) Retiring, please award E(Ret) status - with the associated 'Certificate of Appreciation'

 

It does not say at any point

 

Thanks Andy for clarifying this a bit more.

 

If I were a club secretary and answered 'no' to one or more of those questions I don't think I could then go on to select option '1'. If that option were to be selected by a majority committee vote or a majority membership vote then fine. Which is what I guess will be happening in most cases.

 

I do understand that the secretary has traditionally been the committee officer who carries out the re-ratification process and that the wording of the letter doesn't intend to mean that it should be solely his own decision.

 

Brian.

 

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5 minutes ago, RottenRow said:

If I were a club secretary and answered 'no' to one or more of those questions I don't think I could then go on to select option '1'. If that option were to be selected by a majority committee vote or a majority membership vote then fine. Which is what I guess will be happening in most cases.

 

We know that circumstances are different at each club and for each examiner. I have just been speaking to one that is in 2 clubs and ratified by both. However he very rarely visits one of the clubs, maybe only once or twice a year and then just to take a test, however he is a very active flyer, can still demo a very very good B, and actively promotes the scheme, so the club would have to answer no to the first and third question, but the examiner is still definitely worth keeping.

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3 hours ago, SIMON CRAGG said:

 

If it was not for the fact that I am needed to test club members (Learners are on the lead until passing their "A"), then I would bin it as well.

 

 

Does this mean that the candidate's first "solo" flight is the actual test?  We (as I suspect most clubs do?) get a learner flying off the buddy lead but under close supervision once they reach the stage where interventions are rare until they reach test standard.  I would have thought doing the test as their first flight off the lead adds rather a lot of stress to the occasion.

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3 hours ago, Andy Symons - BMFA said:

We know that circumstances are different at each club and for each examiner. I have just been speaking to one that is in 2 clubs and ratified by both. However he very rarely visits one of the clubs, maybe only once or twice a year and then just to take a test, however he is a very active flyer, can still demo a very very good B, and actively promotes the scheme, so the club would have to answer no to the first and third question, but the examiner is still definitely worth keeping.

 

Perfect timing that Andy, we just put a member forward, test being arranged for the near future. Man's a long time member of our club, but he's moved house so we'll now be his second club, membership voted all in favour.

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2 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Does this mean that the candidate's first "solo" flight is the actual test?  We (as I suspect most clubs do?) get a learner flying off the buddy lead but under close supervision once they reach the stage where interventions are rare until they reach test standard.  I would have thought doing the test as their first flight off the lead adds rather a lot of stress to the occasion.

No.

 

It means that it is our long standing  club policy to teach on the buddy lead during the embryo stages.

 

This enables the instructor to "save" the model should the need arise.

 

When the student is deemed experienced and capable enough, his instruction is continued but without the lead.

 

He continues under instruction until he is ready for his test, and that is when I come in.

 

Subsequently, if we did not have an "in house" examiner, in theory the student could potentially be on the lead ad infinitum until a suitable examiner could be arranged.

 

Hence the reason I have got to take the annual test like it or not.

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