Has flying got easier ?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Well has it ? With the modern kits and foamies and the new power sources, has something like the B become easier to attain ?

Curious as to what opinions are.

For me, once past the learning stage progression seems a quicker process, obviously depends on the pilot and model, be interested if anyone knows, are there more B flyers now percentage wise, than in the times passed ?

[Peter Jenkins]

Hi John, great question.  I'm reminded of the saying "the more I practice, the easier it gets".  I'd be inclined to put my money on that rather than modern kits and foamies making things easier.  Certainly with electric power, there is less of the situation where you see folks spending all day trying to coax a poorly set up IC engine into life.  Then again, there are fewer people around today who can offer advice on IC setup.

 

You would need to ask Andy Symons the question on the percentage of B flyers today as opposed to 5 or 10 years ago.  He'll be able to get the answer.  My gut feel is the percentage of Bs might not have moved from where they were.

[Andy Gates]

I am not too sure about easier.

 

I suspect your observation is possibly due to the improved reliability of the equipment we now use (computer radios, electric power systems, ARTF / BNF aircraft) so we spend less time tinkering / adjusting rather than flying so progress will seem quicker.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not really tinkering/fiddling or reliability related for me, was thinking more wing loading related that kind off thing, power to weight, less inclined to bite when you push it.

[kevin b]

I would say that the facility to fly has become easier (read cheaper as well), in that people have to put in less effort in order to fly.

I don't think that flying itself has become any easier, in fact with the increase in poor flying conditions has probably had the reverse effect.

There is probably less risk for new fliers these days, due to improved equipment quality and also some of the inbuilt systems in the training products.

 

I think that you have to consider that current model designs are far superior to those that a lot of us remember from when Boddo was a lad (actually before my time).

We have learnt a lot over those years !

[PeterF]

If you use something like a 1.6m small F3A plane (Sebart Mythos, AJ Acuity etc.) and you have it well set up there is a less piloting load. I took my B and examiner assessment with this type of plane in the past 18 months and glad i did. I am not sure if such capable neutral aircraft were readily available when i first started flying 20 plus years ago.

[Don Fry]

As a motor user, I declare an interest.

But, I think electric and IC models have similar power to weight ratios if they deliver similar airborne times.

Therefore they will fly more or less the same.
But an electric model has more flexibility, as a lower KV motor can be offset by a bigger prop. And an electric flyer, if the setup is sound, will get a motor run.

When you can do that with an IC setup, with confidence, flying skills are a given. 

[Peter Jenkins]

13 minutes ago, PeterF said:

If you use something like a 1.6m small F3A plane (Sebart Mythos, AJ Acuity etc.) and you have it well set up there is a less piloting load. I took my B and examiner assessment with this type of plane in the past 18 months and glad i did. I am not sure if such capable neutral aircraft were readily available when i first started flying 20 plus years ago.

You had to build them then but there were aerobatic aircraft with those capabilities.  The issue was could you build it accurately and straight!  You don't need the building skills if you use a Sebart, or B J Craft kit today.

[Nick Somerville]

Young persons coming into our sport are generally hard wired to use remote/radio control interfaces. This surely makes the learning curve for flying rc models easier than it used to be and electric powered models certainly increase accessibility. Thereafter it’s either down to learning on your own from mistakes (repeatedly in my case ?) or hooking up with a good tutor. Many of us can recall at least one teacher who helped shape our careers/lives etc, and If when getting into the hobby you find someone who can guide you through the initial stages, happy days.

[Brian Cooper]

I am not sure it (flying) has become easier.  The people who I teach all seem to display the same, traditional problems and mistakes as in previous times. 

 

As has already been noted, the more you practice, the easier it gets. 

 

However, the hobby/sport has never been easier to get in to.  

ARTF models and reliable radios certainly are making the game far more user-friendly than it was in the 1960s...... lol. 

[Nick Cripps]

I think the widespread use of foam models with their relatively low wing loadings has fooled some pilots into thinking that models either don't stall or do so very gently. When they move onto a more typical sport-style model with more weight and power they can get a nasty surprise!

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Yessss,

 Years ago useless novice builders like me who couldn't cut a straight line with an exacto knife, used 1 kilo opps, 1.5 Lbs of rubbish glue to stick it together

silk and paper covering materials, enough to give the wings a good warp, a rubbish engine that would pack up on take  off even after spending the morning trying to get it started and oozing the last 'watt' out of the gold plated AD4 1.5v battery in the process, a rubbish radio which weighed the best part of 1 Lb, where the servos jittered at the though of taking off in the heap of rubbish that we called a radio controlled plane, wing loadings probably off the scale by today's standards,

and helped by the last pilot on the field who flew and actually landed his plane without breaking it,,,

 

yes was that easy,,,,,?

 

20 years on ( 1995 ) a 4cc os, a 1m20 arf an Fm radio, 4/5 hours of putting it together, a couple of hours on the Futaba simulator and a decent teacher and you were sure to go home (more or less ) with your plane intact.

 

Today "buy now", turn radio on select gyro stabiliser plug in battery and fly, the longest part is joining a club and filling in the legal paperwork,,

 

 

yes the 70's those were the days,,,?

 

[Rich Griff]

Remember free flight ?

 

That branch of the hobby demanded good model making skills, and "real skills" in setting up the plane, and a bit of luck combined with a large space/area.

 

Those skills/requirement were reducing in the 80's, but do still exist.

 

So the real aeromodeller are the free flight gang in my eyes.

 

Not a practical proposition where I used to live, or live now. Too many mountains here.

 

Modern computer radio gear is still a bit of a mystery to me, I started off with non servo reverse kit, so you had to "think"...

 

These days, just fit, twiddle a few buttons ( which ones ? ) and off you go.

 

Internet and computer needed, oh please someone make a no frills modern radio set.

 

Servo reverse, rates, yes please...telemetry and fail safe ( fail safe ? Return to take off point ? ) nice, auto stabilisation ? 

 

Free flight skills being lost I feel, but it's still being done...so kept alive.

 

How many of us RC gang are free flight capable I wonder ?

 

I know I am probably not !

 

Principles of flight are basically unchanged, just the equipment and desire/opportunities...

[EarlyBird]

55 minutes ago, Rich Griff said:

How many of us RC gang are free flight capable I wonder ?

I am because the same skills are used in RC. IMHO

[J D 8]

              I am also and what was learned is still put into use trimming out both mine and other modelers planes.

             On the subject of foamy learners I find that even when well competent they can be reluctant to have a go on traditional types even if it is one of my oldy's which I have put up high in the sky [ couple of mistakes ] for then to have a go on.

[Brian Cooper]

Modern radios have revolutionised R/C flying.  We switch them on and they work. 

The reassurance of reliability certainly helps with learning the game. 

 

Going back to the 1960s, we switched them on, stared at the Tx and thought, "Hmmm, I wonder if it needs a new valve".  ?

 

Also, back in those "good old days" there was no such thing as a Flying Instructor.  In those days, you had few test-glides into long grass, and then you launched a plane into the air and started learning............ fast. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Brian Cooper

[Rich Griff]

Not quite...reference to free flight skills...unless you have good present and past experience...

 

Launch a free flight and it's down to how it was trimmed before it was launched, IE you can't retrim it until it lands, sometimes becoming a mangled kit...

 

Launch an RC plane and trim as needed using RC, ie it can be trimmed whilst flying...

 

Unless of course the plane requires no retrimming whatsoever. Even fine trimming /fine tuning.

 

Its usual to test glide/trim a free flight prior to full commitment, over long grass etc..

 

Free flight usually has in built stability, dihedral etc..

 

They are usually light in weight.

 

Try test gliding a wot 4 or similar, without using RC.

 

Yes, carefull accurate building, c of g and throws correct, right model on the tx list etc....all needed stuff to be correct before take off.

 

With RC you can close the throttle at will, with free flight,  once launched, the engine power output is what you set it to just before launch, come what may...even on the very first flight, even if at low power and a ten seconds engine run.

 

Ten seconds is a long time...time enough for it to slightly bank to the left, defeat the dihedral, and roll/spiral in from 40 feet or so...seen it happen.

 

Even seen RC planes do it.

 

Part of trimming, RC and free flight, is, is the undercarriage tracking striaght ?

 

You know why that's important, tracking straight is a good start, not tracking straight is probably gunna end only one way.  RC, close the throttle...seen people who didnt/don't.

 

You live and learn.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Rich Griff

[EarlyBird]

Rich,

 

You are not telling me anything I did not know.

As I said I use the skills I learned before RC and I have not lost them.

I am free flight capable.

Why argue?

[ken anderson.]

computer radio sets,ARTF models...the only skill needed now is the learning to fly the models...as has been mentioned early radio was a hit and miss affair sometimes...now so reliable and cheap to buy as well..

 

ken anderson....ne..1....happy days dept.

 

[Rich Griff]

Hi eb, we are not the only people in the room...

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Stabilisation and lightweight but repairable foam models have certainly improved expectations for beginners to make rapid progress at the cost of instilling good practice - as others have said, the progression to a more traditional advanced model can come as quite a nasty surprise. 

 

I'm sure Brian will bear me out on this but the buddy lead made a terrific difference in allowing extended flight times.  Before that, when (frequently) things went pear shaped, the wrestling match to pass the transmitter was only sometimes successful in saving the model from an "arrival".

 

When Brian taught me to fly (in the pre-buddy lead days), the session would last until the model was completely unflyable and resume the next time after repairs.  It felt quite normal to take home a damaged model in order to repair it - after all, we all built from kits or plans back then so nothing was truly beyond repair.

 

It's been getting easier to learn over the last 20 years but I suspect that there's a bigger turnover rate as the investment in time to reach solo standard has reduced - less commitment meaning less sense of achievement perhaps and fewer challenges to maintain interest?

[EarlyBird]

1 hour ago, Rich Griff said:

Hi eb, we are not the only people in the room...

I know that's the nature of an open forum.

[Geoff S]

18 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said:

Hi John, great question.  I'm reminded of the saying "the more I practice, the easier it gets".  I'd be inclined to put my money on that rather than modern kits and foamies making things easier.  Certainly with electric power, there is less of the situation where you see folks spending all day trying to coax a poorly set up IC engine into life.  Then again, there are fewer people around today who can offer advice on IC setup.

 

You would need to ask Andy Symons the question on the percentage of B flyers today as opposed to 5 or 10 years ago.  He'll be able to get the answer.  My gut feel is the percentage of Bs might not have moved from where they were.

 

To be a trifle pedantic, I think the quote is more accurately "the more I practice, the luckier I get."  which is my experience.  When I was racing dinghies every chance I got, it was usually the better sailors who got the 'lucky' wind shifts that gained them valuable places. 

 

Your second point re spending all day trying to get a glow engine running reliably has a lot of validity.  I know there a people here who claim never to have a dead stick but I've often seen modellers who've spent ages trying to get the engine running properly take-off only to suffer a dead stick as soon as the 'plane leaves the ground.

 

As for the actual topic, I think learning to fly has become easier rather than flying itself.   I think the availability of PC based flight simulators and buddy leads, as well as competent instructors has played a part as well.  I didn't start aero-modelling until I was in my mid-fifties back in the 90s and there were no simulators (though I had a home computer) and I had to build my own trainer, which, in view of the time investment, made flying much more tense for a beginner.  I also, in my innocence I fitted an MDS 40 which didn't help flying time (I wrongly assumed model engines were so simple compared with the motorcycle engines I'd been involved in for years that they were all the same).  I can fly OK now but not very well - I usually get them down in one piece and I'm able to perform simple but inaccurate aerobatics but I will never win any prizes.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Don't agree that modern  radio electronics make Flying any easier, and that's what I asked, more to set up in days of yore via mechanical means, but set up you could.

 

I believe flying the test is easier these days with the modern artf, pretty much every chat about "What's best model to fly the B with" gets met with the Sebby type answer, be intereted to know break down on models used these days, last two at our club chose Sebby types, lecky/light wing loading.

 

 

 

 

[Peter Jenkins]

John, you're right that the flying is no easier it's just more likely that you will get to the field and fly several flights with much less hassle than in the "old" days.  I think that having a level of today's equipment reliability means that your continuity of flying is far greater.  If you only managed one flight per session, as was quite often the case before something went wrong, then it took longer to get your hand/eye coordination training.  That's what I meant and should have said more explicitly.

 

As regards the B, I took mine with a Wot 4 with all its faults.  I still demo the B with the same Wot 4 some 11 years later.  If you stick to flying a specialist aerobatic airframe for your B then you need to learn how to land properly every time as these airframes are designed to fly and not crash and be easily repaired.  Airframes that are too light are a bit of a liability as they get moved around a lot more by wind gusts than a trad Wot 4 type.  Don't mind if it's leccy or IC but you must have the duration with a leccy otherwise you need to land to replace the battery pack to get through a B.  Duration of flight is still the one advantage of an IC model.  I would look for around 12 mins for duration for a B to allow the repetition of any manoeuvre if the Examiner asked for one to be repeated.  I used to be able to get in 2 full B flights but without a full landing between them on one tankful in my Wot 4 which was about 15 mins.