john stones 1 - Moderator Posted February 7, 2022 Author Share Posted February 7, 2022 I always felt the pilot who goes flying without issues, or faffing with stuff every other session was what a B flyer was, assuming they can fly the test. Mentioned enough, pay attention to the pilots pit routine/attitude part of the test is having that standard, would we pass a pilot who flew great but was poor otherwise, not me. My test was a clip wing Cub, not a fan of seeing demos with Sebbys etc, would like to see common or garden types used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Unless you have trimmed even a Sebba airframe it will demonstrate poor flying characteristics. Too many candidates do not get, or seek, help in how to set up their aircraft to maximise its capabilities. I agree with you that a demo of the B with a well set up aerobatic model is of little help to a candidate with a standard club model. However, if someone turns up with a specialist aerobatic model to fly the B they should not be expected to fly to a higher standard than if they had a more usual club model. It is the pilot who is being tested and not the model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted February 7, 2022 Author Share Posted February 7, 2022 Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said: Unless you have trimmed even a Sebba airframe it will demonstrate poor flying characteristics. Too many candidates do not get, or seek, help in how to set up their aircraft to maximise its capabilities. The biggest problem with Sebart models is the specced CG tends to be massively forward. It's rather baffling given Mr Silvestri is such a good pilot (see below), but he must like it there for some reason; for the other 99.9% of pilot the flight characteristics will be disappointing. Once I found out this is a known thing I was able to quickly improve things on my Miss Wind (I'd have got there in the end, but it would have taken a long time inching the CG back in 3mm increments!). I do wonder how many are flown around by owners at the stock setting though, wondering why inverted is poor and they pull all over the place in up and downlines... Edited February 8, 2022 by MattyB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 It would be better for all manufacturers to give a range of CG positions rather than a single position with a short commentary on flight characteristics with different CG positions. Somehow, I don't see that happening any time soon! Even a Wot 4 benefits from having its CG moved aft from the quoted position, as I found out when grappling with during my days of B practice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 I think, the actual rearmost CG position, is related to the small differences between individual airframes. Hence a range. Fly it badly with a forward CG, move back over time to your sweet spot. Another factor, is trimming in reducing elevator throws as it goes back I once did a maiden flight with a rearward CG. A couple of hundred hours of work, airframe, bits of the radio, motor, all gone in 10 seconds of terrified time. I don’t think anyone can just say, a Wot 4 has its sweet spot, x mm behind the leading edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Houghton 1 Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 I think getting into the hobby is easier with models that only take a few minutes to assemble, and with built in stabilisation at the flick of a switch, there is much less risk of going home with a bag of bits after your first flight. So this makes it easier to fly and a pilots interest to grow and expand into more complex models. The learning curve never stops though! I have flown using Hi-Tec radios for years now, but with the demise of Hi-Tec radios I have had to look elsewhere for a new radio system, so I opted for the cheap and cheerful Frysky Taranis QX7. Thank God for YouTube is all I can say, otherwise I'd still be scratching my head and the programming of my first full house powered glider is almost complete with only speed reflex & thermal camber across ailerons & flaps to complete this evening. This has been challenging to say the least but at least I'm getting to grips with the programming and may purchase a more complex model later on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Without spotlighting on any specific plane type for RC model flight, it has got easier to attempt it, and electric flight and ARTF/RTF are the key ingredients. No learning curve to handle engines, starters, fuel pumps, etc. No mess. By comparison no deadsticks, or nerves about them doing so affecting how you fly. turn up, turn on accessibility Minimal build time. Gyros etc helping the early stages. Radio that does not glitch and servos regularly fail. Do the new people attempting aviation now feel this? Of course they don't, in the same way that drivers now do not understand the difficulties of the days before power steering, reliable engines, good brakes (even brakes on every wheel), long gaps between maintenance periods, the lack of the need to double de-clutch a crash box up and down every change, using a clutch that is either in or out with NO slide (cone clutches,etc). To them its still a challenge, and some won't make it. Twas ever thus. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyB Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Don Fry said: I think, the actual rearmost CG position, is related to the small differences between individual airframes. Hence a range. Fly it badly with a forward CG, move back over time to your sweet spot. Another factor, is trimming in reducing elevator throws as it goes back I once did a maiden flight with a rearward CG. A couple of hundred hours of work, airframe, bits of the radio, motor, all gone in 10 seconds of terrified time. I don’t think anyone can just say, a Wot 4 has its sweet spot, x mm behind the leading edge. Yes, anyone with a decent amount of experience will obviously agree with that, but the Sebart CGs are so far out it's ridiculous. from memory mine has come back about 45mm from the stock position, I've had to completely re-engineer the battery securing system because it's had to go right back in the fuselage in order to achieve the right balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john davidson 1 Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 When I was fifteen I bought by mail a second hand DC Sabre , screwed it a bench and learned to start and tune it before building a Phantom Mite which never got airborne despite roping in my girlfriend to to help launch. Didn't Know any better. Now there is so much advice available online it is vastly different including where to approach a club for help 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 22 minutes ago, john davidson 1 said: When I was fifteen I bought by mail a second hand DC Sabre , screwed it a bench and learned to start and tune it before building a Phantom Mite which never got airborne despite roping in my girlfriend to to help launch. Didn't Know any better. Now there is so much advice available online it is vastly different including where to approach a club for help I would say, at 15, you had the nowse to have a girlfriend who was willing to to launch model aircraft. Respect. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zflyer Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Its not the flying. Its the landing!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Griff Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Ditto about the girlfriend, hope you married her ! Planes will land all by themselves with no help from us, but will they ever fly again ? Thanks zflier ! Pretty soon cars will not need drivers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Gates Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 1 minute ago, Rich Griff said: Pretty soon cars will not need drivers... I still find that concept terrifying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 56 minutes ago, Andy Gates said: I still find that concept terrifying? Why? We fly on airliners that land themselves! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 We do TESLA cars that can’t spot a cream artic 40 odd tonner, crossing your path on a cloudy day. AI is a myth. It might be good to filter medical stuff, with care, but in real time decision making, write a disclaimer first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Peter Jenkins said: Why? We fly on airliners that land themselves! I would suggest the problems and hazards facing a landing aircraft are far fewer than a self driving car has. There are no other aircraft trying to land at the same time and those that are (on an adjacent runway, say) are flying in the same direction not coming out of side roads unexpectedly or travelling in the opposite direction. Moreover they are landing in a controlled environment with no other users - not like a public road, where anything can, and often does, happen. A friend of mine is very experienced in the design of self-driving road vehicles. In fact the last time I spoke to him he was designing a self-driving bus for, IIRC, use at Southampton Airport to transport car passengers to and from the car parks to the terminal. He was trying the bus out on our airfield (and paying the owner for the privilege). His opinion is that a truly self-driving car is far into the future. I attended a Faraday Lecture back in the early 60s called 'Electronics and Air Safety' and even then, hands off landings were possible - that's about 60 years ago when computers needed an air-conditioned environment and were huge. The ones I was working on at the time had a clock speed of 1Mhz and the semi-conductors were germanium transistors. We've a long way to go before self driving cars become a reality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Geoff, things have moved on mightily since the early days of blind landing which were pioneered by Smiths and RAE Bedford at the Blind Landing Experimental Unit. In my last job before retiring I worked with the remnants of that legacy where a specially adapted 2 seat Harrier (fly by wire rear cockpit controls normal front cockpit controls) was used to develop autoland for the Harrier onto a moving aircraft carrier using differential GPS. The average miss distance after 70 automatic vertical landings was 70 cm (or thereabouts). Agreed you didn't have the complexity of.a road traffic scenario but the same team was also working on autonomous operation of unmanned aircraft. That is getting very close in complexity as we have 3 dimensions to consider. With the appropriate infrastructure, and the equivalent of IFF on the ground, we have the technology now to do this. The issue is how to integrate unmanned vehicles safely into the current environment and, like the problem of integrating UAVs into the manned aircraft environment, will throw up a great many legal liability and public confidence issues. Having witnessed the growing incompetence of many of today's car drivers I can only think that replacing them with auto driving cars can only be a good thing! Sorry - way off topic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 7 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said: Having witnessed the growing incompetence of many of today's car drivers I can only think that replacing them with auto driving cars can only be a good thing! That'll be the generation that needs a TokTok 'hack' telling them that to demist a windscreen, turn the heater to demist...... Possibly harsh - many useless drivers of all ages. Makes we wonder who taught them and how they ever passed a test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 11 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said: Why? We fly on airliners that land themselves! What drunken pilot with a stewardess on his lap would waste his time landing a plane ?.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Davies 3 Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 53 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said: What drunken pilot with a stewardess on his lap would waste his time landing a plane ?.? Paul, what club are you a member of, and do they have any vacancies? Oh, you meant full size. As you were... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 8 hours ago, Graham Davies 3 said: Paul, what club are you a member of, and do they have any vacancies? Oh, you meant full size. As you were... From the horses mouth,,, no names as he is family,,,,? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Quinn-Harvie 1 Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) On 05/02/2022 at 08:42, Rich Griff said: Modern computer radio gear is still a bit of a mystery to me, I started off with non servo reverse kit, so you had to "think"... These days, just fit, twiddle a few buttons ( which ones ? ) and off you go. Yup, back in the old days you had to think. So what's stopping anyone having to think NOW? You just said you find it a "mystery" You have to think of different things is all. I am not denying free flight is an art, but this "Oh it was better in the old days when nothing worked, cost an absolute fortune but weren't we all clever?" Is a bit disingenuous if we refuse to engage our much vaunted brains with a computer radio and a manual. Different skills, yes, but not necessarily better ones - evolution in action. Edited January 5 by Stuart Quinn-Harvie 1 better phrasing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chaddock Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 I do agree with SQH1 in principle but as a follower on several aeromodelling web sites it does amaze me how poorly people "problem solve". In many cases the advice is the same over and over. I wonder how these problems were solved before the ease of internet web sites. Perhaps it was trying to understand what might cause the problem as well as a bit of logical testing. These abilities are if anything more important now as much of the actual workings of the electronics are totally invisible to the user. The ability to "think through" a problem is a vital human attribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 hours ago, Simon Chaddock said: I do agree with SQH1 in principle but as a follower on several aeromodelling web sites it does amaze me how poorly people "problem solve". In many cases the advice is the same over and over. I wonder how these problems were solved before the ease of internet web sites. Perhaps it was trying to understand what might cause the problem as well as a bit of logical testing. These abilities are if anything more important now as much of the actual workings of the electronics are totally invisible to the user. The ability to "think through" a problem is a vital human attribute. I agree. That's what most of my so-called career was about, from valve radios as a teenager to software and programmable logic devices when I retired 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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