The BMFA Achievement Scheme: The B Certificate

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Look what I spotted in the C test Scale.

The Overshoot.. The aim of the manoeuvre is to simulate an aborted landing due to an higher than normal landing approach.

[Zflyer]

Flying any model plane, regardless of type or size, requires any number of physical and mental abilities in order to do so safely. A standard test of flying and understanding of the rules is in the main the requirement of any test. Achieved only with practise and in most cases tution.

It is fair to say that overtime our mental and physical abilities deteriate, or become lost to accident or illness.

The A certificate is a recognition of one's competency. 

The B certificate is a recognition of more honed ability.

All the achievements under the scheme are voluntary, however it is a standard which has been judged and certainly for the A at least displays that an element of safety has been passed onto the practitioner. Many clubs have no requirement for model pilots to fly having passed the A. Fine but their ability must surely be seen by someone, after all no one wants to share airspace with an 8ndividual whose competency is questionable. So in those clubs who decides?

A time limited option may seem fine but finding examiners, never mind 8nstructors is in my experience difficult at club level.

Our current system may not be perfect but is certainly several steps in the right direction. 

All of us will question our abilities as time or injury dictate and hopefully our lack of same will be evident to us, but may need, diplomatically, pointing out.

If the above seems out of kilter with the views on here so be it.

I have an A only and enjoy my flying and hope to add to my ability to fly manoeuvres of varying sorts.  Whether or not I take the B is my decision. Knowing I am considered safe and competent to a National standard is the main thing.

[David Davis 2]

5 minutes ago, Zflyer said:

 ... after all no one wants to share airspace with an 8ndividual whose competency is questionable...

You should try flying in La Coupe Des Barons Zflyer. There the competence of the pilots ranges from expert to downright dangerous! 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWg0Ad5cKs

 

PS. I've just looked at the B Test schedule. I don't feel confident that I can carry out all of those manouevres to the standard required especially under the eyes of two examiners, furthermore, I've never liked doing things to a pre-arranged pattern. I think I'll give the B Certificate a miss when i get back to dear old Blighty.

[GrumpyGnome]

Any in particular David?  

 

I know my pal who recently passed his B struggled with the stall turn - he was told when he was practicing that he was doing wing-overs.  Another flying buddy struggles to do rolls slow enough to demonstrate use of the other controls...... 

[Frank Skilbeck]

David, there's no requirement to take a "B" it's a personal achievement.

 

I did my B when we organised an examiners workshop at our field, I did the B demo flight (before I got my B) with my Astrohog, the only comment I got back was that I was holding the aileron stick fully over when doing the rolls, I had to as my Hog has quite a slow roll rate and I can't increase the aileron throw!. Later on on the same day I took my "B" with my Wots Wot so I could demonstrate the consecutive rolls without holding in full aileron.

 

I git judged twice that day, once by all the examiners and prospective examiners, around 12, and then with the area chief examiner. 

 

But I know some people get nervous when they are being "tested" the club member I'd lined up to demonstrate the "A" made a real hash of it due to the pressure.

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

12 minutes ago, Frank Skilbeck said:

David, there's no requirement to take a "B" it's a personal achievement.

 

I did my B when we organised an examiners workshop at our field, I did the B demo flight (before I got my B) with my Astrohog, the only comment I got back was that I was holding the aileron stick fully over when doing the rolls, I had to as my Hog has quite a slow roll rate and I can't increase the aileron throw!. Later on on the same day I took my "B" with my Wots Wot so I could demonstrate the consecutive rolls without holding in full aileron.

 

I git judged twice that day, once by all the examiners and prospective examiners, around 12, and then with the area chief examiner. 

 

But I know some people get nervous when they are being "tested" the club member I'd lined up to demonstrate the "A" made a real hash of it due to the pressure.

 

 

 

Seems an odd comment to make Frank, pilot sets his movement up to suit his style/model, why's how much you move aileron or any other stick require a comment.

[Brian Cooper]

If anyone is a bit mystified with the vagaries of the A and/or the B, there are mid-week (2 days) events every month throughout the summer months at Buckminster where people can get tuition from Instructors and Examiners. 

 

One thing which never ceases to amaze me at these events is the number of people who have never seen any of the Test sequences flown in real life. . . Many have said that it is this lack of knowledge of what is expected which has raised their nervousness.  

 

However, at the start of each day we demonstrate the A and the B . . . and we don't mind demonstrating them all day long if anyone wants to see repeats. 

After some practice flights, most people seem to get the hang of it. 

Importantly though, we like to make these events relaxed and fun. 

 

On a separate note: 

If Examiners are notably absent at your clubs, then your clubs have chosen the wrong people to be Examiners . . . . Or maybe they just need more Examiners. 

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I always advise pilots to read this, I carry some copies and pass them around, ignore the chat and stuff you hear from some, read what examiners guidelines are and question if they're not followed.

 

https://britishmfa.sharepoint.com/sites/public/Achievement Scheme Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?id=%2Fsites%2Fpublic%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FTest Standards %26 Guideline Booklets%2FFixed Wing Power Certificates May 2020 V1.pdf&parent=%2Fsites%2Fpublic%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FTest Standards %26 Guideline Booklets

[Cuban8]

1 hour ago, David Davis 2 said:

You should try flying in La Coupe Des Barons Zflyer. There the competence of the pilots ranges from expert to downright dangerous! 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWg0Ad5cKs

 

PS. I've just looked at the B Test schedule. I don't feel confident that I can carry out all of those manouevres to the standard required especially under the eyes of two examiners, furthermore, I've never liked doing things to a pre-arranged pattern. I think I'll give the B Certificate a miss when i get back to dear old Blighty.

Don't be put off David. From what I've seen of those demo vids they do try to show the ideal test candidate flying as close as possible to a perfect test (they don't always IMHO) - but in the real world, most examiners, of which I am one, will understand that perfection is rarely possible even in the highest levels of any sport, therefore reason and common sense should prevail. Everyone flys with a degree of error caused by various reasons and circumstances, so providing a candidate flys with understanding and reasonable accuracy for the level of test being attempted then there should never be an issue.

I did my 'B' quite a few years ago and was tested by a very well known area chief examiner..........if I can pass, then with a bit of prep, mostly anyone can if they really want to.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Cuban8

[David Davis 2]

1 hour ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Any in particular David?  

 

I know my pal who recently passed his B struggled with the stall turn - he was told when he was practicing that he was doing wing-overs.  Another flying buddy struggles to do rolls slow enough to demonstrate use of the other controls...... 

 

I'd struggle with both of those.

 

Rolls. Some of my models require down elevator when in the inverted phase of the roll, others like my ARTF Acrowot seem to do axial rolls just on the ailerons. I know that you are supposed to use the rudder when executing a roll but I don't know where or how.

 

Stall turns. I did not understand the term "flying away from the pilot" in the description. Surely you climb almost vertically, allow speed to bleed off, give the engine a burst of power and simultaneously kick the rudder over. The model should then descend in the same plane in which it climbed. I have always put in up elevator after the dive and the model then flies towards me to fly the model away from me would require me to half-roll then recover to straight and level flight.

 

Three turn spin. I doubt if I am skillful enough to perform a three turn spin with both entry and exit into wind.

 

If it's going to be so difficult, I'm sure I'll not bother. As far as I'm concerned this hobby is supposed to be fun not an examination of one's aerobatic skills.

 

PS. I know that the B Certificate is not compulsory.

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

No requirement for rudder during the rolls if the model don't need it David.

Read the link I posted above, it tells you what examiner looks for, ignore the grapevine it often contains nonsense.

[GrumpyGnome]

1 hour ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

I always advise pilots to read this, I carry some copies and pass them around, ignore the chat and stuff you hear from some, read what examiners guidelines are and question if they're not followed.

 

https://britishmfa.sharepoint.com/sites/public/Achievement Scheme Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?id=%2Fsites%2Fpublic%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FTest Standards %26 Guideline Booklets%2FFixed Wing Power Certificates May 2020 V1.pdf&parent=%2Fsites%2Fpublic%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FTest Standards %26 Guideline Booklets

 

Hi John

 

The link asks for a password.....

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

1 minute ago, GrumpyGnome said:

 

Hi John

 

The link asks for a password.....

 Sorry, GG didn't know that.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

BMFA home page, hover info, acheivement scheme, click, then hover downloads and click standards and guidelines booklets, double click to open them.

 

Soz don't know how else to do it.

[John Lee]

It's all here: https://achievements.bmfa.uk

 

[Jonathan M]

On 20/02/2022 at 13:42, Andy Stephenson said:

Jonathan,

 

I may well see you at some of them as I compete at those events, it's very friendly and there is no elitism.

Have you been to their website, http://www.ukcaa.org.uk/Default.aspx You will need to join to get a login to view the members page, the yearly sub is £10.00 so it won't break the bank.

The contest rules link doesn't seem to work but if you need the latest rules I could email you a copy.

 

Andy.

 

Cheers Andy - I've already joined and have put the various event dates in my diary.

[Andy Stephenson]

Jonathan,

PM sent.

[Peter Jenkins]

On 22/02/2022 at 10:17, David Davis 2 said:

 

I'd struggle with both of those.

 

Rolls. Some of my models require down elevator when in the inverted phase of the roll, others like my ARTF Acrowot seem to do axial rolls just on the ailerons. I know that you are supposed to use the rudder when executing a roll but I don't know where or how.

 

Stall turns. I did not understand the term "flying away from the pilot" in the description. Surely you climb almost vertically, allow speed to bleed off, give the engine a burst of power and simultaneously kick the rudder over. The model should then descend in the same plane in which it climbed. I have always put in up elevator after the dive and the model then flies towards me to fly the model away from me would require me to half-roll then recover to straight and level flight.

 

Three turn spin. I doubt if I am skillful enough to perform a three turn spin with both entry and exit into wind.

 

If it's going to be so difficult, I'm sure I'll not bother. As far as I'm concerned this hobby is supposed to be fun not an examination of one's aerobatic skills.

 

PS. I know that the B Certificate is not compulsory.

 

 

David

 

There is an excellent description of each manoeuvre that is required for the B Test written by Andy Ellison for RCM&E and now available for download, or reading on line, from the Achievement Scheme website under the B Prepared tab - click on this link.  I used it when I was doing my B for which I used a Wot 4 with an Irvine 53.  You can also use a trainer with a semi symmetric wing section although it will not roll as axially as your Acrowot.  It is worth downloading the 2022 guidance notes for the B from the downloads tab on the Achievement Scheme website as well.

 

I also wrote a bit about how to fly the B in this thread .  The B posts start on the post dated 16 Sep 2014.  How to fly the B is a little disjointed as there are many other posts making suggestions or providing alternative views along the way.

 

You definitely do not need to buy a specialist aerobatic aircraft to fly the B!  Something like the Wot 4/Acrowot is perfectly acceptable as is even a trainer provided it has an engine that will give the required performance to fly both an inside and outside loop (bunt).

 

I've heard pilots tell me that the B is too difficult for the average pilot.  When I asked them to explain this, they expected to be able to fly the B without doing any practice before hand.  If it were that simple to fly then I would ask what's the object of flying something that can be flown without practice? As I kept a record of all my B test flying, I know that I flew 80 flights usually with 2 Bs per flight.  Although I felt ready after 60 flights, the problem was getting 2 club examiners on site at the same time.  It took around 3 months to go from first B flight to the test and I'm pleased to say that I passed at the first attempt.  So, it's not difficult to fly the B but it requires some thought about what needs to be flown, where it should be positioned and how you are going to get from one manoeuvre to the next since that is not specified and is up to you to make your own decision/choice.

 

It is not as difficult as you are representing it provided that you do a decent amount of practice before taking the test.  The biggest advantage to doing the B is that you become less stressed by having to put your aircraft into unusual positions.  So, when you end up by accident in an unusual position you know how to get out of it and you avoid having to resort to a black bin bag!

 

I hope you will go for your B and I know that with a bit of perseverance you will both enjoy it and come out feeling like you have improved your flying skills no end.

 

Good luck.

[David Davis 2]

Thank you Peter for a most informative reply. I am grateful for the time and trouble you took to respond. You are obviously a very competent and enthusiastic pilot. Other threads you have posted in suggest to me that your main interest in aeromodelling seems to be aerobatics. While I accept that being able to fly the B Schedule makes you a better pilot, I feel that some of us, perhaps most of us, are not sufficiently skillful to be able fly the B Schedule and that we feel little motivation to have a go. I haven't lived in England for over six years but the club I belonged to when I lived there insisted that pilots had to have the A Certificate in order to fly unsupervised, so most of us managed to pass the A Certificate. The club had a membership of eighty but I doubt whether 10% of the membership had a B Certificate. Of the three or four friends who used to go for a beer after flying, none of us had the B Certificate. The examiner must have passed his B Certificate and there were two or three highly competent pilots who may have passed theirs but the rest of us felt no motivation to have a go.

 

Yesterday was a superb flying day here in central France, 14C and no wind to speak of. My club consists of about thirty members. Of those, four are certainly better pilots than I am but three of those live and work in Paris so they are rarely at the field. Another four are about the same standard as me, the rest are either people who have come back to the hobby after decades away from it and are struggling to regain their skills or people who have taken up radio controlled flying in retirement and are learning the art. Two of us, the club's chairman and I do the bulk of the instructing. It is a time consuming process as older beginners take much longer to learn the skills involved than younger people. One of the four pilots who is more competent than me is twelve years old! He flew an ordinary ARTF trainer in inverted circles yesterday afternoon! His father is one of the other three.

 

After spending the morning instructing I got out my Laser 70 powered ARTF Acrowot. I was a bit ham fisted with the rudder on take of but I got it into the air and tried to do one of the manoeuvres required by the B Certificate, three axial rolls to the left and to the right. I could manage two before losing altitude while attempting to perform the third and as for doing one set of rolls into wind and another with the wind, forget it! Is the horizontal eight a requirement of the B Certificate? I can fly a horizontal eight all day but with equal sized circles, at a constant altitude, with the intersection at a fixed point in front of the pilot? Forget that as well! I enjoyed the aerobatic capabilities of the model for a few more minutes flying loops, rolls and Immelmans before landing a bit too fast. No damage.

 

The point is Peter, that I have been flying r/c models for thirty-two years, I turn seventy-four next month and I have come to the conclusion that I am not skillful enough to be able to pass the B Certificate, that I am never going to achieve that level of skill and that I am certainly not alone. Neither am I motivated to have a go. I would not enjoy the learning process. The B Certificate remains the preserve of a minority of pilots whose main interest is aerobatics.

 

Someone once started a thread called "Ever Wanted To Improve Your Aerobatics?" My response was, "No, not really." My interests lie elsewhere.

 

Thank you once again Peter for your interest in this thread and for the time and trouble you have taken to encourage me.

 

 

[EarlyBird]

1 hour ago, David Davis 2 said:

The B Certificate remains the preserve of a minority of pilots whose main interest is aerobatics.

The majority of B pilots at my club fly models > 7.5 kg and some > 20 kg and club rules make the B a requirement. Like you I have decided I will never pass the B so I fly little models, which I am told are harder to fly and therefore require more skill. That decision has not stopped me practicing the manoeuvres just for fun and you never know maybe one day I will pass and then be able to instruct others. Age is just a number or so I am told by our oldest 93 years young member.

 

Steve

[Denis Watkins]

2 hours ago, David Davis 2 said:

I was a bit ham fisted with the rudder on take of but I got it into the air and tried to do one of the manoeuvres required by the B Certificate, three axial rolls to the left and to the right. I could manage two before losing altitude while attempting to perform the third and as for doing one set of rolls into wind and another with the wind, forget it!

 

Am not splitting hairs David, but you only have to do two axial rolls.

Three is more difficult, but not required.

[Ron Gray]

@David Davis 2 DD, I really do not see that the B is really only for those who want to do aerobatics, surely it is a demonstration ( mainly to yourself) of being able to control your ‘plane to successfully carry out pre determined manoeuvres. Any practice that we do to achieve this surely makes us better pilots? You stated that you tried to carry out the 3 (actually the B requires 2)axial rolls part of the B but didn’t complete it because of losing height, without trying to be critical doesn’t that show that you didn’t use other controls (elevator?) during the manoeuvre. Knowing why you lost height and being able to correct that situation avoids the ‘bin bag’ scenario and If practicing the B only achieves that for you surely that is good? 
 

I haven’t got the B, didn’t want to be bothered to take it etc etc but decided early this year that I was going to do it. I don’t want to do aerobatics (F3a), I started that before Covid doing the clubman schedule but lost interest mainly because to be ‘good’ at it you have to practice, practice, practice using the same ‘plane and with over 60 ‘planes in my collection  (yes far too many and some are gathering dust) I just don’t want to restrict my flying to one type. I don’t practice the B every time I go flying but when I do I concentrate on the bits that don’t look right to me (classic screwing out of loops because the wings weren’t level going into the manoeuvre, like you, losing height in the rolls because I didn’t apply elevator- both up and down). I have found that due to this practice I have far more confidence in my flying ability and recovery from unusual situations becomes less of a squeaky bum scenario.

 

@EarlyBird

1 hour ago, EarlyBird said:

so I fly little models, which I am told are harder to fly and therefore require more skill

Size isn’t everything and imo what you’ve been told is rubbish, the main thing about small models is they are more difficult to see!

[EarlyBird]

2 minutes ago, Ron Gray said:

Size isn’t everything and imo what you’ve been told is rubbish, the main thing about small models is they are more difficult to see!

That's good so I am not losing out by not going large, as it happens I always thought it was rubbish pushed by an LMA member. What I have noticed is the bigger models fly further away which gives them a long way to walk when they crash. Small but above 1 kg is for me, so I can practice B manoeuvres and pass one day.

 

?

 

Steve

[Ron Gray]

Good for you Steve, and also remember that a larger model usually needs more than one bin bag, so smaller ones are 'greener'.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Ron Gray

[Chris Walby]

3 hours ago, David Davis 2 said:

After spending the morning instructing I got out my Laser 70 powered ARTF Acrowot. I was a bit ham fisted with the rudder on take of but I got it into the air and tried to do one of the manoeuvres required by the B Certificate, three axial rolls to the left and to the right. I could manage two before losing altitude while attempting to perform the third and as for doing one set of rolls into wind and another with the wind, forget it! Is the horizontal eight a requirement of the B Certificate? I can fly a horizontal eight all day but with equal sized circles, at a constant altitude, with the intersection at a fixed point in front of the pilot? Forget that as well! I enjoyed the aerobatic capabilities of the model for a few more minutes flying loops, rolls and Immelmans before landing a bit too fast. No damage.

 

The B can be all things to all people, my point earlier and you touch on it in your post is that you enjoy flying. I know some people that jus fly variations of the A routine, years after they passed it. I would find that boring after a short time and what I would advocate is to try other maneuvers (you do that anyway), but the B helps focus more on them than normally. It also helps stringing maneuvers together which I think is really beneficial.  

 

Many a times I have been flying and either someone calls (dead stick, people hazard etc) and rather than do a long winded A type maneuver I slip something more elegant/better in. My point is if you never practice or avoid certain maneuvers (B or more advanced) then it limits your enjoyment later on.