The BMFA Achievement Scheme: The B Certificate

[Brian Cooper]

If any Clubs are insisting on an A or B to be an Instructor, it is purely down to those individual Clubs. . I might even say the Club's are just being officious and awkward. 

 

There is no requirement to hold any Achievements to be an Instructor. 

[Andy Gates]

I am an A certificate holder and now I am at 2 clubs.

 

My first club will not let me instruct even though I would like to.

 

My second club on my 2nd session with them allowed me to instruct one member. Following on from this I asked the chairman if they were OK with me doing this as I did not want to tread on any toes. I got told in a very nice way to get on with it.

 

Chalk and cheese reactions.

 

In my professional life I am trained to train people and love doing so. My payback is from their reactions of understanding something they previously did not or from the improvements they achieve.

 

My target for this year is to perfect my skills to be able to become a BMFA Instructor as opposed to a Club one - I hold neither classification at the moment.

 

However like others who have responded here, I have no interest in taking a B test as I prefer to try and fly my machine to scale most of the time. I like to think that this does not mean that my flying is any less precise than a B certificate holders.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Andy Gates

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Plenty B flyers out there who aren't good Instructors, It's not always the best flyers who makes the best ones.

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I struggle with some comments made in examiner threads, It gets said they drive standards ? I disagree, Instructors do that, examiners get any perceived glory for the work done there, B, slightly different, but mostly the same people involved in teaching.

 

B test ? Said it before on here, pattern type models mostly get stated as model of choice to take the test, your model cannot be used as an excuse to miss a manouevre, yet many within the hobby have zero interest in this type ? What is there for these Pilots, their flying isn't less important or less skilfull is it ? Why isn't there an option to accomodate ?

 

Then I look and there is a C cert for scale flyers ? But no B ?

 

Doubt many will agree, but I reckon we need a tweak.

[Andy Gates]

I agree John.

I certainly think it needs reviewing.

I would love to take Scale B rather than an Aerobatic B which is what we seem to have.

 

A slight diversion here for which I apologise but it is relevant, should there be a duration added to the certificates?

 

I know most will say no as they don't want to keep being retested which I understand.

 

BUT, with all the changes that have happened recently with our rules and regulations and their sources, a retest would ensure everyone keeps up to date.

Likewise, if skills deteriorate and a A/B/C test certificate holder can no longer demonstrate their ability to do the test then surely their possession of the cert should lapse.

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Examiners have come under more scrutiny of late Andy and some changes made, no big deal.

Rolling out to the masses ? No thanks, the smelly stuff would hit the whirly thing.

 

The recent changes have been covered via £9 and ticking the box, saying you're aware of new regs.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

55 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

I struggle with some comments made in examiner threads, It gets said they drive standards ? I disagree, Instructors do that, examiners get any perceived glory for the work done there, B, slightly different, but mostly the same people involved in teaching.

 

B test ? Said it before on here, pattern type models mostly get stated as model of choice to take the test, your model cannot be used as an excuse to miss a manouevre, yet many within the hobby have zero interest in this type ? What is there for these Pilots, their flying isn't less important or less skilfull is it ? Why isn't there an option to accomodate ?

 

Then I look and there is a C cert for scale flyers ? But no B ?

 

Doubt many will agree, but I reckon we need a tweak.

 

Is that the case John?  I don't remember such comments and I thought that the claims were that "the scheme" helped to improve standards.  The examiner is only there to confirm that a candidate has reached the prescribed standard.

 

As to the model type, yes, some scale models wouldn't be suitable but even a fairly basic trainer with sufficient power to bunt should, with suitable control movements and C of G, be more than capable of flying the B manoeuvres.  Most of us will have a sports model of some type which is more than capable of flying the test, Wot 4, Extra, Riot or similar - pattern ships are definitely not required!

 

P.S. There's little "glory" attached to an examiner in my experience - that's the province of the successful candidate and their instructor!

Edited February 21, 2022 by Martin Harris - Moderator

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Club Instructors aren't within the scheme, little was said about them so I stand by my comment.

 

Why the Scale C cert then Martin, some scale types would be capable of flying a fixed wing C.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

46 minutes ago, Andy Gates said:

Likewise, if skills deteriorate and a A/B/C test certificate holder can no longer demonstrate their ability to do the test then surely their possession of the cert should lapse.

 

Isn't that against the whole ethos of the scheme, Andy?  The competence has been demonstrated and the certificate awarded as a reflection of that achievement.  It isn't a display or other licence and has never been intended that it's used as one.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

3 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Club Instructors aren't within the scheme, little was said about them so I stand by my comment.

 

Why the Scale C cert then Martin, some scale types would be capable of flying a fixed wing C.

I think I may be missing your point, John - are you confusing BMFA instructors with examiners?  Two different animals and, while unlikely, an examiner might never have instructed anyone in his life!

 

You'd need to address that question to the review committee really but I suspect they may have wanted simply to devise tests in advance of B standard. Given the right model, the scale C can involve a very different skillset to the aerobatic biased B - maybe the question to ask is whether the requirement to hold a B in order to attempt a scale C is appropriate?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

We have a specific Scale C test ?

Any logic that applies to having that, must surely apply at B standards "To me". If there's a need for a categorie surely it should apply.

C test has a relatively small uptake, would have thought a B one would be quite popular and promote the scheme further.

No need to rewrite a new B test, include optionals to accomodate, they're used at C level.

As said before Martin, some ASRC lads view on here.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I would say that (although I've never taken or witnessed a scale C) it seems a far less daunting prospect than the aerobatic C although high standards of flying and operating are required for either test.  Maybe it might have been an option to divorce it from the A,B,C progression and make it an entirely separate achievement without attempting to pitch it at the same level as the aerobatic C test, which could remove the requirement to hold a B cert before taking it. As you say John, maybe one of the ASRC representatives will advise us?

[Andy Gates]

46 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

The competence has been demonstrated and the certificate awarded as a reflection of that achievement

 

It may have been demonstrated at the time of the test, but can it still be demonstrated 5/10/15/20 years down the line?

If not then should that certificate still stand?

That is what I am questioning.

If a certificate is held up as the flyer attaining a certain level of flying competency (which I believe is what it is for and I stand to be corrected), then surely not being to maintain that competency further down the line due to age / lack of flying practice / medical issues ect., then the certificate ought to be removed or reduced.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

The certificate is awarded for demonstrating a particular set of manoeuvres to a defined standard, along with showing a level of knowledge and standard of operation.   It is this achievement which is being recognised and you can't take away that achievement.

 

Once again, it is not, never has been and to my knowledge will never be intended to be a qualification. 

 

Just because some organisations might see it as an indication of competence doesn't change this.  It's up to them to ensure that a pilot is competent and even if they see it as an initial indication then they still have a responsibility to ensure that the holder meets the necessary standards.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

It would achieve very little Andy, and create an uproar, clubs and flyers themselves are the best placed to deal with aging/medical issues.

[Peter Jenkins]

I did suggest that a B(current) or B* rating were offered whereby those interested could re-fly the B every 3 years, or so, on a purely voluntary basis.  That would allow those who wanted to show currency to do so and those who didn't to ignore it.  It would also give Examiners some business for B tests so that they keep current in examining as well.  There wasn't sufficient support for this.  Is there now?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

1 minute ago, Peter Jenkins said:

I did suggest that a B(current) or B* rating were offered whereby those interested could re-fly the B every 3 years, or so, on a purely voluntary basis.  That would allow those who wanted to show currency to do so and those who didn't to ignore it.  It would also give Examiners some business for B tests so that they keep current in examining as well.  There wasn't sufficient support for this.  Is there now?

 

Not from me Peter, means are already there to monitor test passes and current standards via clubs, schemes voluntary, putting that in would create two tiers and another point of potential conflict "My Bs better than yours". ?

[Peter Jenkins]

John, I said it could be voluntary and it's not my B is better than yours it's a case of saying I am still able to fly to the required standard.  In many cases, once a pilot gets a B they then don't maintain that level but still wish to say they are a B pilot.  Perhaps as the B is merely an individual achievement at a point in time we should discourage Clubs from linking certain privileges to holding a B.  Either that or else ask pilots who wish to use the B to fly say a jet or over 7.5 Kg model - the usual reasons given in a Club - then should the Club assure itself from time to time that these pilots are still up to the mark to retain the privilege?  

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Yes Peter, I feel clubs and those who run shows have it covered pretty much, and IF it was brought in, how long before some clubs or individuals start calling for one size fits all ? I favour leaving it as is.

[Brian Cooper]

Several years ago an idea was suggested that a pilot had to acquire an A or B for every model they had. 

The thinking(?) behind this was that every model flew differently so a pilot should be tested for flying each of them.  

If you owned a few models, you were going to be a busy boy.... assuming you could be bothered..!! 

 

It didn't stop there. . . It was also suggested that if any alterations were made - including repairs or even something as basic as changing a prop - the model's characteristics might be changed so the test would need to be done again for that particular aircraft. 

Additionally, an A or B would have a lifespan of three years and then expire. 

 

It was this level of total, idiotic lunacy which prompted me to join the ASRC (Achievement Scheme Review Committee) to fight this proposal and make sure it was killed and cremated...... and then dance on its grave. 

 

Gentlemen, please don't lose sight of the fact that we pursue this pastime for FUN , and the A, B and C are personal  Achievements and are purely voluntary. 

 

Regardless of whatever "weight" some clubs apply to the Achievements, they are not intended to be a passport or a "licence" to higher echelons. 

. 

[David Davis 2]

Four points.

 

1. Several years ago the BMFA recognised Club Level Instructors. Silver stickers were sent to the clubs and they issued them to the members who spent some of their time helping beginners to learn how to fly. No tests, no examinations, the allocation of these badges was left to the discretion of the clubs. I was proud to stick mine onto my flight box. My efforts were at least being recognised. I contacted the BMFA last year to see whether the stickers were still available and was told that the BMFA had abandoned the idea. Why?

 

2. I have already explained my reluctance to take the B Certificate but looked at the BMFAs video footage of someone taking the B Certificate. He was obviously a very competent pilot, probably already at least a B Certificate holder but I noticed that he was flying an ARTF pattern-ship powered by an electric motor. I don't know for certain but I suspect that the cost of the model, motor, ESC and LiPo would be close to or even higher than £1000. This is far more than I would ever spend on a model. I know that it's possible to pass the B Certificate on a WOT 4 powered by a thirty year-old OS 46SF but I would have been less intimidated by the prospect taking a B test if the video had shown a "candidate" flying a similar, lower budget model.

 

3. I can understand why BMFA examiners want to see B Certificate candidates demonstrate their ability to carry out a range test prior to flying the model but the impression that I gained was that we should all do this prior to every flight. Have I got this right? I have always range-checked new models then if all was well, I've just checked that the controls were working before each take off.  

 

4. I did not know that there was a C Certificate for scale models. Can someone provide my with the link?

 

 

 

[Denis Watkins]

Just my advice for the B test, and the A test for that matter.

Don't wait for the date of your test to fly the test.

When you get  a flying day, before you thrash around the sky,

Fly the test for yourself, and any mystery will soon disappear.

Fly at least one test routine during any day that you are out flying.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Denis Watkins

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

 

1 hour ago, David Davis 2 said:

Four points.

 

1. Several years ago the BMFA recognised Club Level Instructors. Silver stickers were sent to the clubs and they issued them to the members who spent some of their time helping beginners to learn how to fly. No tests, no examinations, the allocation of these badges was left to the discretion of the clubs. I was proud to stick mine onto my flight box. My efforts were at least being recognised. I contacted the BMFA last year to see whether the stickers were still available and was told that the BMFA had abandoned the idea. Why?

 

2. I have already explained my reluctance to take the B Certificate but looked at the BMFAs video footage of someone taking the B Certificate. He was obviously a very competent pilot, probably already at least a B Certificate holder but I noticed that he was flying an ARTF pattern-ship powered by an electric motor. I don't know for certain but I suspect that the cost of the model, motor, ESC and LiPo would be close to or even higher than £1000. This is far more than I would ever spend on a model. I know that it's possible to pass the B Certificate on a WOT 4 powered by a thirty year-old OS 46SF but I would have been less intimidated by the prospect taking a B test if the video had shown a "candidate" flying a similar, lower budget model.

 

3. I can understand why BMFA examiners want to see B Certificate candidates demonstrate their ability to carry out a range test prior to flying the model but the impression that I gained was that we should all do this prior to every flight. Have I got this right? I have always range-checked new models then if all was well, I've just checked that the controls were working before each take off.  

 

4. I did not know that there was a C Certificate for scale models. Can someone provide my with the link?

 

 

 

 

1. I would imagine as a cost cutting measure or not many being requested. No sticker comes close to the look on a flyers face you help reach solo.

 

3. Not every flight, no, routines will vary, some at start of a session others will differ.

[Eric Robson]

11 hours ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Plenty B flyers out there who aren't good Instructors, It's not always the best flyers who makes the best ones.

 

Many years ago before A cert's I joined the local club, any one of the members that was competent would take the model off hand you the TX and stand by giving you instructions then land the model for you. Some were natural instructors some were no, everybody was helpful and friendly.

One thing that stands out in my mind was a driving instructor joined the club with no previous flying experience, in a short time he went solo and within a week he was teaching people to fly, I know what he was teaching was fresh in his mind but the manner in which he made the pupil comfortable and put him at ease made all the difference. 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

https://britishmfa.sharepoint.com/sites/public/Achievement Scheme Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?id=%2Fsites%2Fpublic%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FTest Standards %26 Guideline Booklets%2FC(Scale) - 2022 v 1.pdf&parent=%2Fsites%2Fpublic%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FAchievement Scheme Documents%2FTest Standards %26 Guideline Booklets

 

Scale C, David.