Round the pole

[gary davies-jones]

Hi folks,

As a civilian instructor I have recently been given the task of resurecting the "round the pole" flying group at my ATC squadron. To this end i am in the process of placing a very large order of poles, kits, transformers etc from Ballard's, who seem to be the only UK supplier of RTP "stuff."

On the face of it RTP looks to be a fairly simple discipline in which to achieve resonable results without the......errrrrrrr........unschedualed arrivals and so on associated with RC.

Now this is probably (in fact almost certainly) my innocence/ignorance of the subject, so my question is this.

Has anyone got any experience of, advice on, or general comments about RTP flying ?

Many thanks

Gary.

[001]

Used to do this at my old club in the Winter. Great fun, I do not see any real problem except that you might have to set a time limit for each flyer. Its addictive. If I remember correctly, the only competition we did was spot landing, a variation could be carrier deck landing.

 

It is a good idea, I think, to encourage the members to design and build their own aircraft.

For example I built a swing-wing fighter based on the Tornado, quite a challenge to make the wings sweep back at higher speeds by centrifugal force.

[Dave Bran]

Gary,

 

Now that's timing.......................

 

I have NO experience at all of RTP, but the Headmaster of the school I run a twice weekly RC Club inside is gifting all his old stuff in the next week or so for me to revive, so we might have something in common shortly................................

 

Where are Ballards........................??

[Simon Chaddock]

Gary

Actually my Avtar is a RTP model!

As RTP is relatively cheap to do it can be a wonderful learning ground for "own design" for the less experienced builder and simply good fun for everybody else.

 

I have flown RTP on and off for the last 40 years and its relatively gentle indoor flight allowed me to indulge my passion for scale models, many so delicate that they could not really be flown any other way, particularly as I used the power lines as the elevator control lines as well.

Yes this does make the centre pole a bit more complicated but it is really impressive doing a slow approach and beautiful 3 point landings.

This Fairy Gannet is based on the Keil Kraft rubber powered kit and with a slow, nose high approach can pick up an arrester wire and come to rest in a couple of feet, real deck landing.

Multi engine is quite possible.

It looks impressive in the air.

This yellow job has full span flaps and carries a house brick (or rather a very light tissue/balsa replica!) and drops it in flight out of the back door, all operated by a third motor and another power line. 

Of course these models are the result of many years of trail and error but like everybody else I started with simple ones and found it fascinating.

Please feel free to PM me if you want any further info.

 

 

 

[David Ashby - Moderator]

They're nice Simon

I helped the local Air Scouts do RTP a few years ago and it's a good indoor flying activity which allows the cadets/scouts to build models that they can fly and with much less risk of damage. Suprisingly satisfying and enjoyable.

 

Dave - Ballards is a model shop in Tunbridge Wells. They're the plastic kit, Hornby type of shop, no R/C but they've done RTP stuff for years. Here's the link.

[Simon Chaddock]

David

Just had a look through the Ballards web site. There is even a ducted fan unit!

 

Of course there is nothing new under the sun, here is a RTP Vampire flying at the Model Engineer Exhibition in 1946. My Dad actually saw it fly.

Edited By Simon Chaddock on 29/11/2009 15:14:04

[gary davies-jones]

Hi Simon,

impressive selection of models, I hope you don't mind me copying them to show "my" cadets.

 

Thanks for posting the link David, saves me the job.

 

To Simon, I have found Dave ballard very helpful in advising us what to order and, what we didn't really need.

 

If there are no objections.................anyone?.................... I think I'll get the cadets to create thier own identity on here, and blog our triumphs, achievments and setbacks with plenty of photos etc.

 

Finally Gary, this school is not by any chance in Norwich is it?

 

Gary

[kc]

Before you spend loads of money on RTP, are you sure this will interest youth who are used to seeing & running RC cars etc . Tiny RC planes and helicopters are even demonstrated in shopping centres and bought by anyone, so RTP might seem a bit poor by comparison.   Just a thought!

[Simon Chaddock]

Gary

You are very welcome to use the pics and I have quite a few more, as well as other RTP models.

I for one will be most interested to hear of their exploits and will gladly exchange info with them via this site.

RTP a bit poor? Possibly, but to those that are interested there is nothing quite like seeing your own creation take to the air.

 

 

[gary davies-jones]

Hi kc,

Know where your comming from, BUT! we already have a stock of such models, including fixed wing and heli's for indoor, as well as a foamy 4 channel trainer, and a 30 size heli, and all thier related Tx Rx kit, starters, chargers and so on.

Last time a cadet/instructor flew anything (an indoor heli) it got expensive in tems of repairs to said whirlybird. Thus the Officer Comanding has decided that we should therefore build up to these mor advanced (lethal) models slowly.  Now to that end I am currently learning to fly fixed wing RC myself, and evetually hope to get to grips with heli's.

Our eventual aim (although the cadts don't know it yet) is to build up to all forms of RC flying by tying up with a local club. Assuming we can find one who are willing to help train a dozen or so kids at a time.

Gary

[gary davies-jones]

Hi Simon,

Thanks for that. I'll see what I can do about getting one of the cadets to create a user ident on Tuesday evening (squadron nights being Tuesday & Friday).

 

Gary

 

Oh and with reference to my last post,  the instructor was not me!

[Mike Rolls]

If you can still get the dual head set-up that can be fun. At Three Kings years ago the juniors loved that set up for combat - cheapest possible models of about 12" span or less, try and chew up the other a/c with the propor just knock it down. A spot of cyano and the loser would be airborn again in minutes. Carrier deck was fun as well.

Mike

[gary davies-jones]

Hi Mike,

We've ordered two twin poles and transformers for just that purpose. It appeals to the destructive nature of the kids, especially the boys..................well instructors......................well me.

 

Gary

[Andy Gates]

Gary

 

I was a ATC cadet once and enjoyed many sessions of destruction with round the pole aircraft. It is huge fun and dovetails in nicely with the "Principles of Flight (Gliding)" course.

 

I went through the ATC system, up to Staff Cadet and a Fight Sergent before I was deemed too old so I became a Civillian Instructor.

 

2 plane flying was quite normal.

 

We also flew many different styles, from the thin stick and tissue lightweight floaters, the balsa profile series up to scale WWII fighters built fully sheeted that were hellishly quick.

 

We had a few issues which I will pass on.

 

Make sure the power supply has a stabilised voltage or 2 separate power systems so that when flying 2 planes a sudden drop in power on one plane does not affect the power available to the other.

 

Props always caused us issues, either coming off the motor, loosing blades or being way too heavy. I would imagine most of these issues have now been addressed.

 

Connectors for the power to and from the flying wires had a habit of melting under the abuse they got from 2-3 hours of continuous flying in one evening. Again I would imagine this issue has been addressed if not take modern R/C principles with you.

 

We had a wooden box made so the pole was mounted about 4 feet above the ground which helped our planes fly off a rough wooden slatted drill hall floor.

 

I wish you the best of luck.

 

If I can help in any way just shout.

 

[gary davies-jones]

Thanks Andy,

We may well take you up on that offer.

We have ordered two of Ballard's top of the range transformers, so I hope they are as you describe (they should for the price). I will keep an eye on the connectors, and if they look at all "squashy" I'll replace them with something really heavey duty.

We're very lucky to be located in the T.A. centre in Swansea, and it has a lovely smooth gym floor we can fly off.

Keep an eye out in this thread for the squadrons user identity if your interested. We'll be blogging our efforts with loads of pics, and I hope some vids.

Many thanks

Gary (C.I. Davies-Jones 215 City of Swansea Squadron).

[Andy Gates]

Gary

 

Those transformers are far beefier than the ones we used, as is the current version of the pole so you should have no problems there.

 

Our pole was a weak plastic which bent quite a bit with the strain of retaining 2 relatively fast flying models.

 

All our planes were modified to use the 4554 motors and flew on 3-4 meter wires.

 

The connectors do appear to be the same as the ones we used so watch for them softening with prolonged use.

 

Hope you all have fun.

 

Ex C.I. Gates 1334 Manningtree Squadron

[Dave Bran]

Posted by David Ashby - RCME Administrator on 29/11/2009 06:19:40:

Dave - Ballards is a model shop in Tunbridge Wells. They're the plastic kit, Hornby type of shop, no R/C but they've done RTP stuff for years. Here's the link.

 

 

 Thanks David..................

 

 Thinks.................. 2212-6 brushless, 6x4, 30A Supply..........................

 

                            Combat anybody???.......................... 

 

I'm still waiting for the bundle of old stuff................................

[Jono]

Bit of a thread resurrection here, but any joy with the RTP at the Sqn?

 

We're about to restage the Battle of Britain using ours (all good clean fun, but I might have to swing the results if history is about to be changed) as part of  our Inter-Flight Competition.

 

The main thing I find with this kit is to have a tube of glue and a soldering iron on standby!

[Erfolg]

Our club had a Jetex speed model flying around the pole, at club night. No electrical power required, quite fast to, while it lasted.

 

All this happened quite recently, well 20 years ago.

[i12fly]

RTP is fun. did a bit several years ago. One thing to watch though is for shorts on the laquered wire, particularly where you add the 'strain relief' as it gets hotter at that point. Maybe the new transformers are short circuit proof? If not make sure you have a fuse in line. I have an old Keil Kraft dual output transformer, they had a reputation for burning out, but mine is OK as I always used a fuse. Yes I blew the fuse several times. Think I'll dig it out and have a go again. I made up a head to operate elevator but it was only marginally effective as the model wasn't really light enough to control well. My dad flew RTP in the fifties, with models about 2 foot span with rubber power -they went like bats out of hell. He also designed elevator control, which was good for landings.

[Jono]

The lacquered wire is an issue although careful storage makes a difference.  Combat is more wearing on the models that the hardware strangely enough.  When two wires get wrapped up and bring a couple of speedy models crashing down you would have thought it would do some damage, but it's usually just dented balsa.

 

We've got a big power supply inherited from a company having a clear out which doubles as a radio power supply as well.

 

I've designed our Hurricane and started kitting the bits.  Me109 next! 

[gary davies-jones]

Hi guys,

timely resurection of topic. We (the cadets and me) have been up and running now a while. It's amazing how much there is to it. I thought it would be very simplistic, and consquently boring. HOWEVER, how wrong can you be. We're all hooked.

The kids, and that includes those of us over 40, love the combat. The cadets who were a bit bored during the initial build stage have taken to it, and now are working on uilding thier own designs (with varying degrees of success). The reason seems to be the competative nature of combat.

We'vebeen having a lot of mystery fuse blowing as well, in both power supplies and speed controllers, but as yet we can't trace a cause.

The only other fly in the ointment now being the C.O. He wants us to get into radio flying so that we can look great at our "Lee's Trophy" (best squadron in Britain) inspection in April. We however are at the moment hooked on RTP, although I have just finnished building a copy of a KK Phantom control liner with a PAW diesel up front. The kids are looking at it as a sort of RTP on steroids. I feel though there's just greater potential for destruction in combat. We'll see.

Jono, we have just started on a couple of Hurricane kits from Ballard's having already built the Me 109's (for authenticity like the real battle of Britain with Germany rearming in great numbers while we slept).  The 109 is a real simple profile model, but we hae a couple of spare copies of the plans. If you'd like one let me know.

Gary

[Jono]

Ah, Lees Trophy; is it the Wing or Region inspection you're up to?  It is hard work whichever level.  

 

Thanks for the offer of the 109 plan, I've just finished drawing from a 3 view to a similar size (11.5" or so) as the Hurricane so I'll run with that.  But thanks again for the offer.

 

Are you using the motors from Ballards?  I've been looking around for a cheaper source for them but now joy.  That said we haven't worn any out yet which has surprised me.  

 

I'm thinking about a "Scramble" mission, 109 at altitude, Hurri scrambling off the deck to intercept.  Need the soundtrack to the film running in the background though! 

[gary davies-jones]

Hi Jono

we,re going for the national "best squadron in Britain." We have won it three times in the past, all before my time. Sounds like you have experience of the Lees Trophy. I'm guessing your ATC or at least ex-ATC, anyway if your interested here's a link to our squadron website

www.215squadron.org.uk

The smaller motors from Ballards (we have so far melted the bearings in three of these) I have substituted for ones from Swansea market at 75p each. The larger Mabbuchi ones (which we can't seem to kill) I am as yet unable to source from anywjere else, although I have been told they are slot car motors. Seem a bit big for that, but you learn somthing new every day.

As to the "Scramble" I think the destruction and mayhem is already at it's zenith. We are already collecting a "propellor deposit" before the cadets take to the air,  and thats without them flying combat missions.

Edited By gary davies-jones on 22/08/2010 17:25:58

[Big Bandit]

Gary,

 

Did the same thing back in 1973, a local model shop had just opened and I helped with the running of the shop on Saturdays. He decided that promoting RTP would be good for trade with the local youth groups in the area. I built all of the models and had some great fun with them. The most popular were the small WW1 biplanes towing short streamers, and using the dual poles.

 

All of the motors were model train types with push on plastic props, cheap as chips and about the most fun to be had per quid as you will get. Another popular model was the Volts-plane, quick to put together and great fun. I remember a trade show we did at Avon Cosmetics site in Northampton and wrapping one around the mirror ball in the Dance hall whilst practicing wing-overs on long lines.

 

The stuff from Ballards was pretty crude in those days, and we made our own poles using 30mm plastic conduit rings to insulate a steel pole, with 30mm ID ball races over the plastic rings. Brass strip clamps were used over outer races to attach the insulated copper lines. The controllers were ex Scalextric things which burned out frequently.

 

I still have a couple of motors including the DF unit that someone has already mentioned, the geared motors are great for scale types such as the larger Gwillows rubber powered things, so anythings possible.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris.