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Member postings for Tom Satinet

Here is a list of all the postings Tom Satinet has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.

Thread: Crow Set Up
18/12/2013 10:37:22

Phil

i don't think you will ever get great crow brakes for a few of reasons:

1 ) the flaps are top hinged, so they will probably only go down a certain amount. Although that will depend on how the control surface is cut. Bananas have no gap seals as you know (as I recall anyway), so this might be less of an issue.

2) he linkage is likely less optimal for large crow brake travels than you get with bottom hinged/top driven flaps. Because your linkage seems to be on the bottom of the wing, you will have to pull the linkage towards the servo head when you apply crow, which will tend to bind the linkage (horn) on the servo head), unless you have a really long servo arm, which is not ideal.

3) the flaps are physically quite small compared to the ailerons. If you look at model that is designed for landing (e.g f3j model) the flaps are often longer than the ailerons. As you know when you get a banana they only come with ailerons and you have to cut the aileron to get flaps (and cut holes for the servos).

T

Thread: Glider Tow
20/11/2013 14:51:34

Hi

Just to say - you can definitely launch a plane with the tow hook behind the flying CG. When you apply a very heavy load to the point where the tow hook is, that essentially becomes your new CG. Imagine dangling a 20kg block off the tow hook and then measuring the CG. The weight of the glider would not make much difference - the CG would basically be where the tow hook is. You can trim the model to fly on the launch with the elevator.

That's not to say having tow hook on or behind the CG is the best place to start or even the best place to get a good launch. Every model is different!

I would go with the a few mm in front of the CG

T

Thread: newbie to gliding, what to buy and little help with whats what
12/08/2013 12:51:41

James

If you go down the powered glider route it's worth bearing in mind that a lot of slope sites don't allow powered flight. I would check the situation on the slopes you will be flying at if it's slope soaring you are talking about.

To be honest I would not get any easy glider as they are really slow and very boring. I would imagine even more so if you already fly RC planes.

It's hard to recommend anything as it's down to budget and building skills. The best gliders are all moulded, but they cost the most money.

T

Thread: Small model recommendations
01/08/2013 14:06:56

They are very nice Kits Akash. I have got the mk1 zip33. Been lazy and not finished it yet!

the mk2 zip33 folds down even more because the tail is removable. They are not that cheap, but then they are quality.

01/08/2013 13:45:48

the weasel evo from the same manufactuer, flies well.

The Multiplex Xeno. Not seen one - heard "mixed" reports as a glider.

Non foam maybe the zip33:

**LINK**

Thread: Fitting a RX into a Radian Pro - not a lot of space
27/07/2013 21:46:59

I put the RX under where the batteries go.

Thread: Experiences with a 2m glider,
05/06/2013 13:23:25
Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 03/06/2013 11:58:06:

This thread came to mind following some comments in another thread.

I recently (Christmas time) took delivery of a Phoenix 2000 powered glider. Its my very first glider - yes, all these years and I've never owned a glider! smile o I've had a go on the sticks with other people's a few times - but not seriously.

But everyone was so enthusiastic about the P2000 and it was a very reasonable price, so I thought I'd give it go - see what the fuss is about. So, let's be clear,... I want to like this, but....

If you were to ask me what my first impressions are, then I'd have to say that in my view this model is a serious waste of a good receiver! I have had about twenty flights with it and frankly I just don't get it! I can't see what's so fantastic - I think its possibly the most boring aeroplane I have ever flown - it does nothing well as far I can tell.

Gliding - rubbish. My mate has a Weston Cougar converted to electric that would glide the pants of the Phoenix any day of the week - much lower sink rate and more positive control. I know of several Hypes that would embarrass it as well.

Aerobatics - Ha, don't make me laugh, it hurts! Its roll response is pathetically slow - ponderous would be a good description. Loops? well if you dive like a looney for speed (and I use the term "speed" in a very loose sense you understand) it might pull a decent sized loop - then again it might not. Oh- sure you can pull it "end over end" - but that's not my idea of a loop.

Energy management - what energy? It doesn't seem capable of accumulating very much!

Thermaling - well OK marginally interesting - and we have some very strong thermals where I fly off the AC units on the roof of the local hospital; so it goes up - hurrah! Then it comes down again - boo! What's that about? Do you just go up and down? Is that "it"?

I can't see the pleasure in climbing under motor power and then just gliding down again. Then climbing again,...and gliding down again. Then climb,....well - I'm sure you get the picture!

Now, I am fully prepared to be informed - this isn't intended as some sort of "getting at gliders", honestly - I genuinely want to know what it is that I'm missing. Because logic says I'm missing something at the moment. You see there are no glider pilots at my club - I'm "it". I have no one to ask, so I'm asking you. I recently even bought a book on soaring and thermaling to see if that would enlighten me. No joy so far.

So, here's your chance to convince me that there is more to gliding than just a mean spirited, undignified, scrabble around for bits of lift. I'm genuinely prepared to be convinced; because if I can't be shown something I'm missing I've got a much better home for that receiver!

BEB

That made me chuckle! Can't really argue with honesty can you.

In fairness some of those cheap foam gliders are of a standard to make you want to take up a different hobby altogether.

Thread: SAS Fusion 46 is dead
24/05/2013 15:05:11

I can't really see understand the instructions being so vehemently against ballast. I have flown the fusion 46 (the orginal) with a bit of ballast and it was absolultely fine. I would not ballast too far beyond say half it's flying weight, but I think it is fine, if done sensibly (i.e not a bit of a lead handing off it).

I didn't really agree with no covering the underside or joing the wing halfs after they were taped either to be honest (nor did I use the supplied copydex-esque glue come to think of it).

Down trimming is not the same as increasing the weight and is a less effiecent way to fly. If it was a simple as down trimming models there would be no such thing as ballast. (ditto for full size gliding). Agreed there are better models for high winds generally speaking.

Ballast isn't the same as weight required on the nose (or tail) to balance a model.

To be honest the key to getting a good wildthing (which will fly well in strong winds) is keeping the drag to a minimum with a clean, straight build. I have seen many zagis/wildies/etc at my local slope with covering having off, improperly balanced, and with trim to mask build errors. Use the wing beds and make sure the CW tape and other covering don't warp the model. They are a heck of a lot easier to fly and setup if built straight and true.

I am not suggesting you cannot build it straight I have just seen that many wonky epp models in my time sloping that I know what the effect is. The wildy/fusion isn't that easy to build dead straight, to be honest, because the spar doesn't extend to the tips and there is no drag spar the on trailiing edge (and the EPP is fairly flexible). That isn't a criticism - the amount of freash epp and correx control surfaces make the model what it is - pretty much indestructible.

I wouldn't worry too much about whether you are getting a fusion or a wildy mark whatever, but it straight, get the covering stuck down and balance it properly and it will fly very well.

I like 3m '77 spray to help CW tape stick to an epp wing.

23/05/2013 18:39:42

the fusion 46 has the same wing as the wildthing 46.

Maybe that's why the fusion has been stopped - they are too similar?

Thread: Tail plane Configurations
10/05/2013 17:51:52

yes the WT is much harder to setup well than a conventional glider. It does however bounce very well.

To be honest I occasionaly see beginners really struggling with wings as they get them thinking they are indestructable, but often they are badly made and badly setup so they are a challenge to fly even for an experiened pilot. I am not saying this is the case in your case Chris, just saying don't be scared of a non wing, it will probably be a lot easier to fly, as Steve says.

+1 on the choice of tail for aerobatis (not vtail!).

10/05/2013 13:50:43
Posted by chris basson on 10/05/2013 08:16:24:
Hmm.. now at the moment my entry level (futaba 6ex) Tx had got V-tail mixing but I've already realized that it won't control a 4 servo wing so will need upgrading eventually (Taranis, taranis, salivate, salivate), but as I'm more interested (at the moment) in aerobatics than racing I think a "normal" or possibly cruciform tail (i think they look coolest) would be the way forward?

CB

Chris

I would just ring Stan and tell him what stage you are at and how you want to fly the model. I am sure he will advise you on the correct model from his range to get. He is a knowledgable guy and nice to chat to.

IMHO you want a nice solid conventional model to do aerobatics with.

Hth

Tom

10/05/2013 13:47:26
Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 10/05/2013 11:39:22:
Posted by Tom Satinet on 10/05/2013 08:03:19:

I don't think the top f3b/f3f guys go on fashion, they look for the best performance.

If you are going to start talking about vtails you should talk about

Then they are "looking" based on no hard quantifiable evidence! And frankly I beg to differ - the racing world (in all its manifestations) has a long an honourable record of things coming in and going out based on "follow my leader" type fashion whims that have little or no scientific foundation. In my view its highly probable the same pilots would have finished in the same positions with conventional tail arrangement.

On the second point I'll do a deal with you Tom,...I wont tell you what you "should" talk about and you afford me and others the same courtesy.

BEB

BEB


I'd certainly like you talk me through the complex control arragements that Vtails have. And what that has got to do with Stan Yeo's kits or rc model flying.

I agree it is debatable whether vtails offer a performance advantage in certain scenarios, but I don't thinky you can dismiss it entirely. My point about the f3j world championship is that either the X tail or the Vee tail can perform to a world class level (even in thermal soaring where yaw control is important) with the right model and the right pilot. The pros and cons are pretty minor even at the highest level.

I think you ignore the other major disadvantage of the T tail on model gliders whichs is that you either have a complex bell crank to drive the tail, a well bent pushrod or servo in the tail. non of which are really ideal. And you have the issues of the tail interfering with the rudder.

10/05/2013 08:03:19
Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 09/05/2013 21:38:44:
Posted by Tom Satinet on 09/05/2013 21:25:28:

You will notice virtually competition gliders for f3f and f3b are vtail - i.e where speed counts.

The last f3j world championship (and 3rd place) was a vtail model.

If so then its purely fashion - there is no independent objective experimental evidence that the Vee-Tail offers any speed advantage.

BEB

I don't think the top f3b/f3f guys go on fashion, they look for the best performance.

If you are going to start talking about vtails you should talk about the real world things that would matter to an rc modeller - e.g having the rudder and elevator function tied together is worse for aerobatics. Vtails sometimes require "differential" on the rudder to avoid pitch changes, which is harder to setup, especially for the beginner.

The other obvious point about building a vtail from a woody kit is that it requiures more precison to get the correct angle (typically around 100 degrees) than a normal tail (90 degree angle). And sometimes the joiner/reinforcement situaton is more complex. I recommend a normal tail from one of stans kits as I don't think the vtail offers any advantage to what the OP wants the model for.

10/05/2013 07:56:47
Posted by John Olsen 1 on 09/05/2013 23:48:23:

The more complex control system with V tails would apply more with full size, where you have to combine the fore and aft movement of the stick with the movement from the rudder pedals to create the correct movement for each surface. While this still has to be done for a model, it is most likely to be done with mixing in the TX these days.

John

Interesting, but not really relevant to model flying. I thnk if you say that to the OP you could be misleading him. Vtails have a dead simple control arrangement on models (2 pushrods). There aren't many non computer TXs about.  The OP is already flying an elevon models so we can assume that he either has a computer radio or the knowledge to use a vtail mixer.

 

 

Edited By Tom Satinet on 10/05/2013 08:04:42

09/05/2013 21:25:28
Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 09/05/2013 12:02:55:

Sorry chaps - been a bit tied up the last few days. Tail configurations eh? Well lets take the standard layout as a datum point and discuss the relative advantages and disadvantages of Vee and Tee relative to that.

The Vee Tail.

The main claimed advantages of the Vee tail are that it is lighter and has less drag. In practice in my view neither of these claims are actually realised. The tail itself may well be lighter, but any gain is usually off-set by the more complex control layout which adds weight.

The less drag argument is more complex. Basically the argument goes that the surface area of a Vee Tail is smaller so surface drag is decreased. But against that to be equally effective all the wind tunnel test tells us that a Vee-Tail's elements have to be bigger than just the projection of the vertical and horizontal surfaces on a convention layout. So in the end the surface area is about the same.

But Vee-Tails are subject to an additional drag force that conventional tails are not. Consider the case where we put in pure down elevator. The conventional tail just moves the elevatoir downwards relative to a purely horizontal plane. But in a Vee-Tail while both elevators do go down - because of their incline they have an outward component to their movement as well. So they create the down pitching moment we want but the right hand one makes a right yaw force as well - which is exactly balanced by left one making left yaw force. These unwanted yaw forces cancel out and we do get pure down in the end - but they still have to be produced, this means that some of the control surface effort is effectly wasted on yaw forces that cancel out. The consequence of this is that to create a given amount of down moment we actually need bigger control surfaces (because some of their effort is wasted)

The disadvantages of thr Vee Tail are mainly two: firstly they obviously require a more complex control system. Second they actually put more stress on the rear of the airframe. The second is not a big issue for most modellers as our airframes are usually well over engineered anyway. But the first is an issue.

So, to summarise on Vee-Tails - no real advantage, more stress and work. But they look nice.

 

Tee Tails.

The main advantages of the Tee tail (aerodynamically) is that it puts the elevator in clean air. In a conventional layout the elevator is working in the wash from the wings so is less effective than it might be. This advantage is definitely true.

Another advantage for modellers is that it puts the tail plane out of harms way in the case of a belly lander.

So, some advantages - but there are some pretty significant disadvantages. First Tee-tail aircraft can have problems with stall recovery. The elevator can end up in the "wind shadow" of the turbulent air coming off the stalled wing so you end up with not only a stalled aircraft but a stalled aircraft with a very ineffective elevator! This means you can't always simply push the nose down and re-establish clean flow over the wings.

The second big disadvantage of the Tee tail is that, for a prop driven model, the elevator is now largely out of the prop wash. This impairs slow speed control. This is the reason why while you may see many jets with Tee-Tails you don't see many prop driven aircraft with them.

Hope this helps

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 09/05/2013 13:03:21

What this complex control system vtails have? You only need two pushrods connected to a horn on each tail surface like you would with a rudder and elevator. in fact I would say vtails are the simplest because you don't run in to problems with the rudder pushrod interfering with the horizontal tail.

They are certainly simpler than all moving tails (and obviously T tails with the servo in the front of the fuse) and the pushrods are kept internal, which doesn't hurt drag.

You will notice virtually competition gliders for f3f and f3b are vtail - i.e where speed counts.

The last f3j world championship (and 3rd place) was a vtail model.

 

To the op - just go for whatever model you take a fancy too. There are good models of all tail types.

The theoretical aerodymanic pros and cons of each tail type are going to make no difference to you if you are looking to progress from a foamy. And if you are good enough you an go and win the thermal soaring (f3j) world championship with a vee tail or a xtail.

That being said the big advantage of "normal" tails (plus T, and X) over vtails is that the rudder is a separate function which is much better for aerobatics - e.g spins and flicks.  If you are talking about a wooden kit such as one of stans designs for general flying I would go for a normal tail as they are usually a bit easier to setup and have a better rudder.

 

Edited By Tom Satinet on 09/05/2013 21:33:58

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 09/05/2013 21:35:35

Thread: slope soaring in Wales
25/04/2013 09:26:01

When it's not raining and when the wind is blowing on the slope

There isn't really a windy season or wet season as such. This link shows you that it is slightly less windy and less rainy in summer, but not by huge margin:

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/wl/print.html

 

I would also check out the Bwlch:

http://www.knewt.com/bwlch/thebwlch.htm

This series of slopes cover all directions. And are pretty awesome.

Edited By Tom Satinet on 25/04/2013 09:28:34

Edited By Tom Satinet on 25/04/2013 09:31:54

Thread: Micro servos in a Middle Phase wing.
22/03/2013 09:42:44

I think because the wing is fairly thick you can pretty much drive the ailerons from where you want. Bear in mind the "standard" middle phase has a single aileron servo driving both ailerons from their inner tips, and they fly fine.

I would position the ailerons at something like 40% of the length of the aileron. Back to front positioning is behind the spar on most gliders, but the middle phase doesn't have spar of course, so i would just position them beyond a 3rd back from the leading edge at least (they say this is the most critical area of the aerofoil). Nearer the trailing edge than the leading edge seems sensible (TLAR).

I think building a box for the servos is a good idea - what about ply? Then you can glue the servo in with a small amount of glue and they will come back out again if needs be. .

Thread: Clear tape
05/03/2013 14:51:39

it's not the same unfortunately.

The new stuff leaves a lot of residue.

04/03/2013 15:54:37

it can be. PM me if you are interested.

04/03/2013 14:47:41

I think the tape is actually "3 mil" clear tape. If you are refering to the Paul Naton video. Don't forget that they work in imperial - 3 mil is 3 thousandths of an inch.

The tape he uses in the video is hp260 by Duck of duck tape fame.

Zagi packaging tape might do the job, something like sellotape won't.

I have the radian pro, not the radian. I feel the biggest problem with the pro is that the tail is rather bendy and the elevator double centres a lot. I have taken mine appart and have installed better aileron and elevator pushrods and rehinged both surfaces. I think I will put a couple of carbon tows down fuse to stiffen it to. I haven't got round to finishing it because I have bought something else, which is a better model.

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