Here is a list of all the postings Peter Beeney has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.
|Thread: Motor stutters near full throttle|
Does a clue now lie in the fact you have 1350 watts versus 860 watts? It did strike me in the beginning that 25 amps at three quarter throttle on the 13 x 8 prop seemed a bit unusual. Plus the fact that the prop seemed to be the only common link during all your trials and tribulations. I always clock the prop speed with a tacho first anyway, that’s a fairly sure way of seeing what’s going on; for me anyway. And my idle thoughts about a warbird of around 9lbs in weight would be that it would surely appreciate at least 1200 watts of power (or just a little bit more, perhaos...) to fly in that nicely spirited manner that warbird should be flown. Flat out! But that’s only my idea, every one has his own personal choices and ideas. Agreeing with Colin it certainly sounds like the Quantum is a potential contender as a replacement. How would you consider your Spit compares physically with your Acrowot? If more or less the same then a likewise power plant might not be far of the button… I’d have thought that the flying characteristics are perhaps not that much too dissimilar, either…
Good luck with what ever you try.
Edited By Peter Beeney on 14/03/2020 19:58:17
Edited By Peter Beeney on 14/03/2020 19:59:16
|Thread: I have Got This Far Should I Just Fly it|
The short answer then Andrew, is that in my opinion the two BECs will operate perfectly happily which ever way you connect them. This has been done in the past with industrial size kit.
With respect to other points of view; not an instruction on how to do it.
There have always been differing options on this little conundrum , it’s probably always going to be an aeromodelling bone of slight contention…
The Clark Y might also be be a good choice for a Bristol Freighter lookalike. Nice and sedate flying. I can remember as a youngster in the nineteen fifties cycling about 20 miles to an airfield perimeter fence just to watch Bristol Freighters taking off and landing.
Edited By Peter Beeney on 25/02/2020 18:23:24
|Thread: Probable scam?|
I have to say, Denis, with the greatest respect of course, but under this sort of circumstance in the first instance I certainly would not be ringing any number given out by any recorded number. That sounds to me a bit like an invite from a sharply operating spider to a rather gullible fly…. I think I’d prefer to call the card’s helpline, generally an 0800 number open 24 hrs I believe, and then taking it from there. If some fraudulent activity was detected I’m sure I would get a personal call; and if they were genuine they would also have some means of positively identifying themselves as well.
I nearly got caught by a legitimate scam once. I noticed a £15 withdrawal on a current account mini statement and couldn’t remember what it was for. For a while I simply thought it was my memory; it can be a bit suspect these days. But being a bit persistent it turned out I probably hadn’t un-ticked a box when I’d done an Argos or John Lewis transaction and as a consequence had unwitting signed up to a monthly email account giving out information on various ‘Best Buys’ Except there were no emails and I knew noting about it at all. I’d actually paid for 2 months, £30, and the bank’s fraud squad gave me a number to ring and the money was instantly repaid. Something I didn’t really expect so I was quite relieved.
When I Googled the comments about this site there were reams and reams of it. And it was worldwide too! A typical one was an American who said he and his wife had a busy joint current account and he eventually found out, much to his chagrin I guess, that he’d been shelling out 10 dollars a month for years. For nothing! But nobody was breaking any rules. Other than that these people had no intention of ever sending out any informative emails. But the fraud squad knew about this and it was a legitimate company. They’d obviously spotted a loophole that’s never been filled….
But it certainly makes me check the mini statements very carefully from then on… and just like that hungry spider, I’ll do my very best to stay ahead of the game.
I suspect the reason these fraudsters are so persistent is because it is so lucrative; and probably also fairly simple to do too, one version maybe using computer generated sequential calls with an operator responding only when someone bites; this will also catch ex-directory numbers as well - there’s no escape. There was a tv item about this recently, including some of the monetary amounts lost, one to remember was a couple in the West Country taken for a million quid, no other details other than that of course, but that would be a shock to anyone’s bank account, to say the very least. Other amounts ran to tens of thousands.
I had a bell yesterday, the caller saying that my Vista/Master Card bank debit card had been compromised, an unauthorised £600 had been withdrawn from my account and deposited abroad. Press 1 to be connected to your bank. I recognised this as a recorded message but there was a degree of urgency about it which I think could quite possibly deceive a person that is a bit confused to start with anyway. It would certainly appear that quite a number of people do respond to these scams, the total amount lost is phenomenal, £500 million to bank scams alone in the first half of 2018…
With money lending control rules changing yet again, I think to try and and limit fraud to some extent, there is one negative side effect for me anyway. As I don’t own or use a mobile phone I find I can’t get a credit card anymore. I discovered this when recently applying for a popular card; my favourite, as it happens. I did pursue this a bit, eventually I got voice to voice with a lady that did know the rules. She politely but categorically told me that I had to supply a mobile number so they could randomly send me a confirmatory text. I’ve not looked at any others yet, but I suspect they will all eventually have to comply with this. But as I’m probably only a fraction of a percent of the population now anyway a workaround solution is unlikely to be coming down the line anytime soon…
Ah well, such is life… I treat every unsolicited email and phone call as fake now until proven otherwise these days…
At the beginning of February I received what at first glance looked like a genuine email from PayPal Customer Care; this stated they needed to confirm the information I’d given them and until I’d done so my account would be severely restricted. There were two links within the email to click on, ‘My Account - PayPal’ and ‘Update information now’.
Nowadays I’m very cautious about any such emails so I just left it for a while and on having a second look look it soon started to fall apart, for instance the senders email address - email@example.com - appears to be a work of fiction and the Customer Care address given - 214 Teignmouth Road Torquay TQ1 4 RX - appears to be an empty residential property!
I use PayPal whenever possible but I don’t make that many online payments anyway. I sent it to Spoof@PayPal but I’ve never had a reply. However, I have just made a donation, the first use since it came and that went through as normal so the account is definitely not restricted….
I’ve personally never had any issues with PayPal in the time I’ve been a user; but another beneficial ‘Rule of Unexpected Consequences’ might arise from this; in future I will be examining any ‘unusually unexpected’ such emails first under a very powerful microscope indeed!! It can work both ways…
To echo Peter C above - you all take care out there……
|Thread: Have I enough power?|
Exactly so. Ray, I’ve always thought along the same lines; although I’m probably even more basic. I start with the tacho and measure the unloaded kV first to make it is what it says on the tin, generally very close but definitely not always the case.
Then I can base everything else on that, relating the prop speed to the unloaded speed I can guess within reason what the current flow will be and also of course very importantly how the model will fly; that’s in conjunction to the already known wing loading, of course.
Then check for any hotspots with a thermometer and verify my current flow guess with a clip on power meter; and then if necessary some juggling with prop sizes when it’s in the air.
And as you say, perhaps not every one’s cup of tea, but then I’ve generally preferred coffee anyway…
|Thread: battery c rating|
Again I shall have to gently agree to disagree with you, for a start I’m not sure that I ever mentioned the C rating as being a motor killer anyway. Maybe rather the opposite, perhaps. I was simply considering choosing the right motor/battery/prop aspect of the discussion. In my view the battery C rating is only a peripheral of this, just needs to be pondered over somewhat whenever a constant high current supply becomes an issue.
As it so happens, sixty plus years ago I was starting to get involved with amongst many other things battery installations such that the C ratings had to be big enough to maintain the voltage between some quite narrow limits under heavy current supply conditions. Usually this lump was an original spec. and well up to the job of course, but occasionally there was an emergency breakdown to fix. In those days you were basically on your own so then you had to do a quick calculation; this simply consisted of wanging in a backup that was definitely big enough for all eventualities and then some to spare, too. However, along the way I did at least begin to get a little bit of the hang of battery speak…….
Very unlikely to be doing any experimenting, either; did all that a while back. Feet up and just read the newspaper nowadays.
The spiders have all died already….. of old age!
Thanks for your reply, but I think that there’s really very little I can add to all this now, other than that I do tend to take a bit of a different slant on the subject. Been tinkering with it for a fair time now, and it’s always worked for me, at least up till today anyhow. Like a voltage going down a wire I always take the line of least resistance; or just lazy, I guess; and I also have to be careful when overdoing the thinking bit, (also very easy for me!), like a resistor suffering from a serious overdose of amps the old brain can get a bit overheated… and well flummoxed into the bargain, too…
Right, now off to brush the cobwebs out of the battery charger…….
Maybe we might have to agree to slightly disagree on this subject, although I’m not even sure now what it is we are actually agreeing/disagreeing about any more…
One point on the little anomaly about burning the motor by using a higher C rated battery, I don’t think this is ever going to be an issue. I’d have thought that at that stage the original battery/motor/prop combo performance was so abysmal that no one would want to fly it anyway. Although having said that I’ve long since not been at all surprised by just about anything that aeromodellers can do!
I’ve long used my own procedures for arriving at the best size of prop to use, and it certainly doesn’t involve clamping the prop stationary and applying full power. Although this does rather make the point fairly succinctly that you can’t always get a firm handle on the speed and power of the prop by reading the battery output on the wattmeter…
On reflection I’ve never seen a burnt motor and I don’t know anyone that has. I did read once about a motor that burnt a coil but that was thought to be an internal short. A few smoking and worse ESCs in the past but electric knowledge, experience and quality of the kit is increasing all the time. In the main I suspect that many electric flyers now spend many hassle free hours these days doing just that without too many problems to overcome!
For our purpose it’s most likely negligible in a good motor, Don, it’s all in the design and quality. There must also be a reactive component too, but we ignore that as well.
Exactly so. Quite agree.
Again with the greatest respect,but there’s just one little point of interest relating to your post, I think the whole chunk of “watts” that you read on your watt meter is actually measuring the produced heat. The mechanical turning action of the motor is the result of a deflecting action between two magnetic fields. All the heat is generated by the current flowing though the resistance of the conductor, no heat is created by the action between the electrically created magnetic field and the permanent magnet.
|Thread: Max Thrust Riot - Upgrades|
Many thanks for your answer above.
I have to admit I’m still still a little puzzled by some of the information here, but then I’m easily confused anyway. I’ve thought for a long time that we have many and diverse views, as someone once said, ask 4 different modellers the same question and you’ll get 5 different answers; and quite likely it’s me that’s the foolish fellow going in two different directions to once… But I suspect it might well be much the same result in other activities as well, such as fishing or golf… one of my once upon a time students was a prominent member of a golf club right next door to the patch at that time and he said the committee ‘discussions’ could on odd occasions lead to near fisticuffs!
And what about the up and coming drone fraternity, too? I wonder if they are always in perfect harmonious agreement as well…
One point about the Riot is it’s longevity. It’s been around for a while now and it’s still a popular model, at least in our little club anyway. I feel that if it were not such a success story it would have fallen by the wayside long ago. It’s willing in any weather, you can sling a few lipos in a warm bag and have a little session on a windy winter’s day if you are so minded. I reckon it’s also pretty tough; as I said before, regarding mine I’m firmly convinced the aileron servos went far beyond the expected call of duty without ever failing; and in common with other of my models I often wondered at what point the wings were going to fold… Whilst the undercart is perhaps not of the best it also seems that even this generally survives the rougher runway at this time of year ok. For the price I think it’s value for money compared with some others.
So there we are… Riot threads have run in the past here on the forum, I’m sure they will continue to do so in the future. And if the adage ‘Any publicity is good publicity’ is true then no harm is done; and I can say I have no connection whatsoever with Century either…
All good luck with your model!
With the greatest respect of course, but may I ask if you think that all Riots ‘are from the outset, marginally powered?’ Or is that just some models? Or have I totally misread that anyway? I’m only asking because in my experience I would think that a standard Riot does at least have adequate power.
The chap flying the Riot in the video that I highlighted, one of the first and using (presumably) the rather limited recommended first flight control surface movements, in a 16mph wind gusting to 29, made a pretty good fist of it in my humble opinion, but by the same token and with the best will in the world he could have only done this with sufficient power available. In the past I’ve flown other models belonging to other people that were less capable than that, both i/c and electric.
From your first flight description I still tend to think that your power train may have some sort of a problem; therefore it should be possible to find out what it might be.
Also it’s possible to upgrade the performance without too much hassle and expense. I simply changed to 4 cells and a different propeller. I only did the servo mods because I thought that the existing setup was not really capable of coping with the increased power and speed, at least in the fashion that I was flying it anyway. Of course, other pilots that use 4S may well be more than happy with it as it is.
With a measured 33.3 amps of current flow at full throttle I also felt this was not really going to overtax any of the hurry up stuff in the front either; and indeed, when I checked occasionally everything was well within the hot limits. That’s only another of my ‘for better or worse quirky ideas’, if a component is cool and collected under all conditions there is unlikely to be any excess current to cause it harm. Maybe all that extra air rushing though the cowl at high speed was helping this effect. A beneficial result from unexpected consequences for once.
Just a few observations in an idle moment really, simply my curiosity rather getting the better of me…..
Reading Nigel R’s little comment about having to glue the rudder in it’s plastic holder reminded me that on the first turn of the first flight of the first Riot that I assembled the fin/rudder popped out of that same holder and was instantly flapping around in the breeze, just held on by the pushrod and quick link! Fortunately no harm done though, and I simply super glued it back in. I found the other models to be the same so I zipped over to the LMS where I’d bought them to warn future customers; he also then went back to Century but it was as an advisory rather than a complaint. Also a post on the forum here at the time, too. This was circa. summer 2013, hopefully it’s all been sorted by now!
I never felt that the Riot was particularly lacklustre in any way. On three cells a lively and friendly puppy. Just a nice universal trainer and hack etc. model. The flying weight was just about 3lb as I remember; as in, cop this one, one of the first Riots. The school I mentioned was a rather Upstream and Country Life sort of establishment, all Drophead Bentleys and Rolex watches; and before you could say ‘You have control’ the lads had got a FPV camera bolted on the top and a small GoPro video camera slung between the undercarriage legs so they could watch themselves filming themselves whizzing up and down the strip! I’ve still got some of that on an SD card they gave me. To all intents and purposes the extra weight and drag seemed to make very little difference to the flying characteristics.
I always used the standard battery size, and with the steel weight removed it was nice and light with a wing loading around 12oz/sqft. which I think was one of the reasons for it’s at least reasonable capabilities. I tried the 4 cell setup just to see what it could be made to do, I’ve always gravitated to flying fast close the ground at times, which can often be rather spectacular… and expensive!!
Only had one problem with the components, we had a motor that suddenly started stopping, usually with the model right in the wrong place; sorry.. I thought it was a connection perhaps but t’was the ESC. A quick email to Century and a replacement crossed the returning one in the post. Excellent stuff.
I have to say that if I had a rather unenthusiastic Riot I’d not be able to resist kicking it around a bit until I discovered what it’s particular ailment was. For one thing, I would have undoubtably learnt something anyway and it’s always useful knowledge to be able to pass on to someone else in the same circumstances.
All Power to your Prop!
PS Bruce - I have read that the spec. of many proper man sized industrial cells are deliberately under rated to guarantee that they would past the commissioning test. Or at least that was the case many years ago in a working life… not sure if that’s still the case nowadays.
I’d have to agree entirely with Kim, as far as I can remember I’ve never seen a Riot that didn’t perform very much like all the others; and as he also said, it does seem as though there could be some discrepancies between the motor performance figures too. However, there are undoubtably some models that are indeed not behaving themselves.
Jeff, I previously mentioned going off topic, what I had in mind was exactly this situation, the various discussions about the reasons for the odd looking amps/rpm figures etc.
So bearing this carefully in mind:-
I’ve always thought that the applied voltage, the rpm and the load are inexorably linked together, if one changes then at least one of the others will change; and always in a proportional manner. In our case it would usually be the voltage or the load that changes.
Think I’d better stop there….
Ok Keith, just a couple of comments in reply then. I do agree you have a problem and I’m sure a comparison with a normal Riot will easily prove this. If the ESC really is shoving the full battery voltage at the motor at full throttle then it might well be a motor kV discrepancy. I would certainly have to consider that it should fly better than you describe. Just a thought, did you ask Century for any ideas they may have?
I simply assemble the model with full control throws right from the start and thus never have to tinker with inadequate surface movements. Beginners have to start as they mean to go on…
That 12 x 6 prop. Maybe Century had simply found a shed load of the props as a cheap job lot; and now they’ve come across a barn full of 11 x 5.5s. This does lead to an interesting little situation though. If their prop statement “flies better” is at all accurate then the watts per lb figure has actually gone down and yet the performance has improved. What’s going on? How does that work? Precisely the reason for my little - ‘Lots of different aspects to consider re. motors etc.’ - suggestion at 02/01/2020 14:06:09 above. And they may well be right, too, that’s definitely the direction I would be going…
Please post with any new info. or any results you get, neg or pos…
I’ll get me coat……
Keith, thanks in turn to you for your answer, you certainly seemed have arrived at one solution!
I have to say though, I would still have some reservations here. It almost seems to me as though on 4S the model performs like a normal Riot on 3S; and as you mentioned practising the B routine I would consider the standard 3S Riot ‘as is’ to be very suitable for that; and, indeed, for eventually taking the test itself.
Certainly I agree the 11 x 5.5 will undoubtably reduce the current flow to at least some extend, and even possibly the performance may slightly increase because of the higher prop speed; and because of the reduced current required the duration will extend. Although whether any of this will be actually noticeable may be questionable too, although I’d always be up for some suck it and see.
Lots of different aspects to consider re. motors etc. but I think any discussions would soon take the thread way too far off topic. Perhaps a ‘anything goes’ type of thread would be more suitable sometime…
Many Happy Landings.
It actually came to light quite easily, I’d reposted in 2016 in Nigel Heather’s thread about the Ruckus. My thinking is that as it’s probably the same motor powering that model it may be of some interest.
Not really much detail as how I actually did this, though, I simply cut the holes at the back end by guesswork and fixed the servos in. Soldered the extension leads and made the appropriate fairly solid pushrods. Not too clear there either but I did use a BlueBird on the rudder as well. Playing safe! The rudder did get quite a lot of heavy stick, so to speak…
And by way of additional information I would also remove the metal weight in the nose as a first move; I faithfully follow the advice of the gentleman that coined the succinct little adage - ‘For success, add lightness’. All this tinkering moves the CoG back a bit further even, and probably gives the elevator a bit more authority, all good and useful stuff as far as I’m concerned.
Re, the theoretical speed figures I don’t know what the actual speed is but it’s certainly quick; relating to that, as I remember it weighed just over 3lb so at 33.3 amps of motive power that equates (I think..) to around 180 watts/lb, fully charged . It does show……
This is the post:
The motor is ok, but it is fairly basic, it has a plain oilite bronze bush bearing, they are not that easy to repair but I’ve vandalised mine more than once; and oddly enough, I can find every size of bush on the web except that one. Same with the rear end circlip, we have a very friendly motor accessory shop handy and they have every size of E clip bar the Riot motor! There is a compatible ‘Donkey’ motor from HK, exact same fit and very much cheaper; lower kV rating, though, 720 from memory. So a 9 x 7 might be ok here.
When I changed to 4 cells I straightaway found the rudder and particularly the elevator were very iffy, so I decided that the push rods were now not up to the job and I moved the servos to the rear end and used short stout metal push rods. Much better, but the elevator could still be a bit reluctant, especially at the end of a flat out power dive very close to the ground. Interesting times! Installing a Blue Bird 380 metal geared fixed it, now total confidence in any situation. The aileron servos have never blinked, though, despite having the max travel available. Like every thing else, they often have to work hard when I go flying, I sometimes tend to get a bit carried away in the heat of the moment…
I changed straight to a 9 x 7 ACP i/c prop, this was excellent until the motor started chattering loudly, on landing I found the bearing had knocked itself out and was mostly plastered around the motor on the inside of the fuz in the form of a black gunge. I replaced this with one from a motor with broken lugs, changed to a 9 x 6 ACP and it’s been fine ever since. I’m not too keen on the Century prop driver either, so I changed that too.
I tend not to generally consider watts and stuff too much, I just use a tacho and check how hot it’s running. Incidentally, if the motor starts stuttering cut the throttle immediately; the power system is being subjected to a full current flow and could quickly complain by rapidly overheating.
The next move might be upping the ante to some Hyperion higher voltage 4 cell packs. A little bit more get up and go and these have a reputation for being able to hold the voltage up under load, too.
Hope this useful for anyone who is looking to improve the performance a few shades!
Edit. Just for interest, I’ve just checked the current, and with a fully charged pack it’s 33.3 amps. So up to about 560 watts then.
From some previous experience with a number of Riots, (Mk I) and some enthusiastic schoolboys I’d tend to agree with you that your model, as standard, may possibly be lacking in power somewhat.
I think that I’d be seriously inclined to start at the beginning and do an unloaded motor revolutions check; if I were using a fully charged 3S in good nick, I’d expect to see around 10,700rpm. I’d be looking for a 10% drop to around 9, 600, your 7,600 figure is very close to 30%. In my opinion the (only) 30 amps of current flow, at these revs that is, does not really tie in with this either so I’d guess a coat of further looking at is required.
If you consider 4S then you can get up to almost pylon racer style performance. I did a post on this a while back, I had to mod the ele and rudder servos and pushrods considerably to cope with the faster speed and therefore control surface loadings. I could probably dig it out if you wish…
|Thread: what type of battery pack for i/c engine trainer|
Just for interest there was a little quirky feature relating to the Schulze charger that actually proved to be quite useful, but I’m not entirely sure it was actually designed to be so.
Whenever I was tinkering with other people’s batteries I alway wore an imaginary cap of Lincoln Green with a large feather in the band, …and probably a pair of green tights and shoes with long toes that curled up at the end to match because I always thought that far too many perfectly sound batteries were unnecessarily being thrown away, more often than not because of the presence of the dreaded black wire corrosion. Serious recycling facilities were still only a twinkle… This was back in the day when you could have your pack in any colour you wanted as long as it was nickel…
So the first thing I always did on a checkover was good gaze at the wire connection and I noticed the very first rather inconspicuous indicator that it might be making an appearance was when looking at the plug under a good light the little part of the crimped socket you can see in the plastic plug the pos would appear bright and shiny and the neg would be very dull and faded by comparison. So at that point a quick re-wire with a replacement cable and all would be well again.
One day a fellow handed me a Rx pack from his helicopter and asked if I might have a look because he’d noticed that the charger sometimes was reluctant to charge it properly. On examination everything was really bright and shiny and indeed he had remarked that he’d only had it a few months, bought new from LMS.
So a discharge to be able to start from scratch, this was perfectly normal, then on charge. After a while I noticed the trace was progressing as it should be, but it was definitely different, slightly fuzzy as opposed to the normal clean line. Now it’s a process of elimination, just a few moments work to slice open the wrapping and a pair of jumper leads with croc clips onto the terminals to bypass the lead. Result - a perfect trace in an instant! So as usual a rewire was all that was needed. I considered this very obscure phenomenon to now be the first indication of the onslaught of the wire corrosion, but I could see nothing wrong with the wire. A cursory resistance check proved inconclusive, but there was no doubt that something was already changing within the conductors. Over the years I can remember at least two other similar cases with the fuzzy trace syndrome. So I’m also convinced that in just about any other situation the pack would have just been thrown out, probably by LMS on an exchange deal. It would have been just accepted as yet another faulty battery.
Also I made myself a few flight packs for powered gliders and I used silver loaded solder for this, kidding myself that the slightly better conductivity would give me increased performance. I used this solder on the battery leads too, wondering if this might act as a preventative, but I was never really able to prove it one way or the other.
All historical stuff now fortunately. I rarely see any mention of the black wire blues these days. But there again, lithium packs have certainly had their moments, and in many ways, more seriously so. Although with improving safety features on chargers etc., I’m sure this improving.
I think I’ll just stick with the LiFe gang for now, the (ancient) lazy man’s power pack….
Edited By Peter Beeney on 06/12/2019 19:07:25
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