Here is a list of all the postings PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.
|Thread: Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel (Pig) Land-Dings|
Hi Bob - Interesting to note that your Jungmeister has a similar problem to my Pig Came! .
It would be nice if both our problems could get sorted and with the help and comment / discussions here there is a good chance an improvement / cure could be found - with a bit of luck. I have noted your toe in / toe out remarks but I think it wise to try what I have done and the try that before I then have a go at the fixed wheel / axle as I cant do the latter before the former!
Hi Mark. Interesting to note the heavy toll on pilots with the real thing and just hope if we can come up with even a part solution it will be of great help - I am hopeful on shifting the lead weight myself but will have to see on that first landing...
Piers - I do hear what your saying and when the tail is flying you can get a responsive input but when all three points are on the ground you have no control and the narrow tract of the plane becomes a major issue but as Mark pointed out about 30% death rate says it all. Agree on the direct into wind and I will only progress to the wheels being fixed to the axles if the two mods now done don't work as it will progress the problem / cure. I did consider moving the landing gear forward but the front strut is already as far forward as it can go - nothing to secure it onto left. The only other option is to re-design the landing gear with longer a longer rear strut length which would push the axle position forward a bit but it could then look visually wrong. Regards to both. Peter
Hi Mark. I have made sure the wheels / axles were in good order - it was the first thing I checked. I have even made it so the U/C had no suspension but that did not help matters.
I am now worried because you say the bent out wheels could cause a problem - don't want to go any further down that route so perhaps I should go with the two mods I have done so far and see what happens - that's the trouble when the weathers bad you tend to get stuck into the problem more and if your not careful you can make things worse...
Thanks for pulling my collar on this one Mark. Regards Peter
Hi Mark. No question about anyone keeping quiet as all this great discussion is relevant and helpful because it gets the grey matter working. Looking at the last video I posted on the Mick Reeves model there is something else I can do and that's to bend the axle so the wheels have more spread on the ground. I wont gain much but it could all help calm the problem. This mod would be easy to do so it's worth incorporating it now - I missed this and although it was put forward in the thread discussions it went over my head so thanks to whoever put that forward - the feature will be added today. Shame its blowing a gale outside as I am keen to see what happens - will the Pig become a Camel! - Peter
|Thread: Death of a Stuka|
Hi George - You get that bomb servo installed and dive it straight for my camera (me flat on my back filming upwards) should look great doing what the Stuka does best - but - - please don't black out in the dive...... I understand the real thing had a device to pull the plane out of the dive if the pilot blacked out for a few seconds - Yours wont have that and I would be at the end of your dive...... Perhaps I should be re-thinking this offer!!!
|Thread: Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel (Pig) Land-Dings|
Been looking around and managed to find just a couple of Camel good landings on YouTube and I also found this on which is a large Mick Reeves kit and the final part of the landing demonstrates the bad character of the plane so it looks like you have to live with it... Fantastic model but a Pig not a Camel!
Edited By PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap on 29/08/2012 11:04:54
Hi again all.
Got up this morning thinking my last efforts (see my last video above) would crack this problem and I found a load of postings casting so many doubts I almost want to dig a hole and jump in - with the Camel... .... Just to give a bit of background I had my own hang glider, paraglider & paramotor power unit and I was flying for 20 years till the the wife saw a microlight crash. Jan stopped me flying after that so I sold my gear and took up models again (did it before cars & girls - in my youth) started with IC Heli's and quickly moving onto scale heli's as scale looks right in the air.
The reason I mentioned heli's is that the first input you have to make on a heli is for the tail - so many of your replies mention flying the tail so I had to respond because on a heli if you don't know where that's going your model will be in bits which is why converts from heli's to planes always input / fly the tail first. Because of my hang gliding days I also have two hang glider models, one IC and the other electric which are a handful to fly as your elevator is your throttle and trying to sort out your CofG on a bit of Nylon is a real headache and response to pitch is slow. In short my pilot skills are not that of a raw beginner however I am not a flying show stopper either... From the scale heli's I moved onto planes and quickly became hooked on WW1 aircraft. I have two DRIs - one is third scale and also a Fokker DVII and the latter is a real pussycat to fly and land and has good stature in the sky - I land all this lot (24 models now in total) with no issues at all - but the Camel (Pig) stumps me almost every time I land and its my pride that it hurts. Other pilots have tried to land it - fast, middle speed, slow and all end with the same result so could it be this kit or a "plane issue"? If you look at ALL the videos you will clearly see that the issue is right at the end - just before the model stops. Forget scale, how you fly it , fast, slow, three pointer because its down with its tail on the ground, not flying, just going to stop - then over it goes. It's that latter problem that upsets me because as you have hardly any forward speed it does not matter what you do with the rudder input your waving in dead air - you lost any viable input from the rudder 10 yards before it finally flipped over... So take a look at the videos again and see what you think - also I placed a post on this site about another poor chap with the same model asking for help in the States regarding the exact same problem on this Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel model which made me feel a little better I might add - but his replies did not crack the problem so is it this model / kit the suffers!!! Regards to all - great debate, Peter
Wingman - Looked at all your pictures and I am interested in you U/C wire rigging but you dont have an image showing the anchor points - any chance of a few images to resolve this as the flex is an issue.
Hi Mark and also Wingman.
Mark - I would have liked to have got the weight all the way down but the limit was the room I have behind the dummy motor cowl together with safe fixing points - lumps of lead dropping out at our flying field could get me a letter from the club secretary. Regarding the wheels I can see where your coming from on this however I think the slightly smaller wheels could be a help - we will see.
Wingman - all your points noted but it does sound like your power unit is heavier than my 82 FS. I tried to get the weight as far forward as I could so I could reduce the lead - I have managed to reduce the lead because the weight is placed further forward and by being lower down it should reduce the angular leverage the inertia has over the U/C when landing.
I considered using the lower firewall section for the lead but the extra weight needed (moving the weight back towards the CofG) would greatly increase the wing loading which I did not want to do.
Keep em coming as this is good brain stimulating stuff - Peter
PLEASE SEE VIDEO JUST ABOVE LAST TWO POSTS FOR PROPOSED CURE FOR SOPWITH CAMEL LANDINGS - SEE IF YOU AGREE THAT THIS COULD HELP...
Edited By PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap on 28/08/2012 22:13:52
Hi again all.
After listening to a number of your views I felt the fixed U/C was the way to go however after looking at the existing U/C I felt it could be a problem which would destroy the existing U/C so I have ordered another so I can play with the idea before I try it out on my model...
In the meantime a few issues have come to me regarding the design of this model - which is why I was very specific in asking like model owners to reply. I have now dealt with the two points I felt will help me the most until the new U/C bits come in and I can tackle the fixed axle component which maybe the final part of the jigsaw to sort this landing problem out. Have a look at this little video I made showing the mods I have just done and let me know what you think - The proof is in the pudding of course and until I can fly it and land it I will not know - see the video and let me know if I'm in with a chance.
You will see by the size and position of the big weight box that it must be an issue as so much forward inertia must be contained in its weight....
Let me know - Thanks Peter
Edited By PETER BRUCE - Eastchurch Gap on 28/08/2012 21:52:55
Hi to all of you and also the many helpful points coming over. The video I made was of my friend Dave trying to land the Camel and because he has seen me try so many ways he decided to try to land doing it HIS way which is why they are fast. All my other planes I can land and that includes two DRIs which are pussycats compared to the Camel. I have landed the Camel a number of times but its always the final stage when its raw bad character comes out and bites you. I made it land on its maiden flight (see video) but that final bit of the landing is never the same and it's always unpredictable which is why I am so frustrated with this model and asked for help.
ALWYN has kindly replied (many thanks) confirming his plane is the Hanger 9 Camel and he has given a number of points which I have tried in the past to no avail with any regular landing success. Pete Taylor relates to my question regarding a COMMON AXLE with the wheels fixed so there is no differential in effect and this looks the most resilient way forward but has its own design problems with the existing model.
The fact remains that when this model keels over the majority of it's inertia has finished but the violence of the "dump" is exceptional for its remaining speed - OK the video where Dave is trying all other landing speeds that I don't do is not the best example but he has seen me try everything else which is why he was a bit extreme but his ideas did not work either and only amplified the Camels bad nature (same as the animal itself) but look at the below video of my own landings and you will notice that even on this, after all the forward speed has been bled off you still have the beast rear its head showing itself right at the end - nowhere near as violent but its there when really there should be nothing. I have to add this is one of the best landings with this plane but its landing consistency I am looking for at and I just don't get it.
Any others out there tried the COMMON AXLE idea put forward by PETE TAYLOR... So ...
Hi (First) Alan - No wheel binding and also RUSTY asked if the field was bumpy - its not flat but I never have any problems with anything else and it is rolled but the dips are still there. - as I said before its just the Camel (Pig). After going on a few other sites (see copy above) the landing problem is a common gripe about this model - also it used to kill enough pilots with the real thing so I could be on a no winner here. I think JOHN DIMOND has mentioned many valid points regarding this model but that means to cure it I would need to almost butcher it and that would be a shame. ALWYN replied and has an electric version but he did not say if it was the Hanger 9 - seems he has cracked it but if it is the same model could it be that he has the weight box fitted lower down!!! Confirmation if you can ALWYN as there has to be a reason your getting the landings and others are not.
On the other site one person came back and said that perhaps having the wheels fixed to each other could help keep a better track... Anyone else think it could help or do I fit pick axe handles as per my DRI... Keep em coming thanks all. Peter
Hi all. This is getting interesting - I have just come off another site and this is a copy of the guys post
I myself usually kill the engine as soon as its on the ground to save damaging the prop however my fellow pilot Dave who was flying the plane when I did the video chose not to cut the engine but to leave it on idle when he landed in different manners each time - the end results were the same either way - "the skate" at the end - Reason I call it skating is that its exactly the way you start off ice speed skating.
Hi John. Thanks for your reply and I to have the Fokker DVII as well and i's a nice plane to fly with no vices at all but it's so much much lighter than the Camel which has the in-built lead weight box stuffed solid with lead to ensure the CofG is right which is because of it's extra short nose.
I did try reducing the lead content but only a small quantity needs to be removed to screw up the ballance of the plane and then it becomes a bit nasty to fly.
I also have the Phoenix flight sim but although its reasonable in the sim the landings are in no way complimentary to what you get with this model (sigh).
Thanks for your input however even with a good head wind and slower ground speed the result is the same - its not the speed its the final final final bit where the speed should not be an issue - that's why I asked for replies from Hanger 9 Camel owners who know how hard this is to land. I have been told of one guy who is looking at fitting a gyro in the hope it helps him. I will be told the results with a bit of luck by a third party - extreme fix but if that's what it takes. SOMEONE must know who has owned one - or like me two... I do honestly suspect there is a design fault but only an owner would know. - Peter
I have now had 2 Hanger 9 Sopwith Camels and its a great plane to throw about the sky with a good presence but landing it is another issue. I did think it was me but as I have two DR1s a DVII and a Tiger moth - all of which I can land with no problems I started to think things perhaps were not right with the model but this 2nd Camel is still the same "Pig" to land... Also got another experienced club member to have a go and it also gave me a chance to film it to see if anything could be learnt - fast approach, slow approach, three point - all end up the same, looks like it wants to ice skate / waddle the final part of the landing. I tried stiffening up the U/C but that did not help either. I also went looking on YouTube for a Hanger 9 Sopwith Camel landing but you can see them doing a take off and flying but I have not seen any doing a decent landing...
So has anyone cracked this beast yet and turned theirs from a Pig to a Camel!
Please please let me know how its done - but only if you have done it with the Hanger 9 model. If your interested in the little film I made after my friend said "give me a go" you can see the results of his endeavour are the same outcome as mine.
Lets see who comes up with the solution / mod.
Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 29/08/2012 00:23:13
|Thread: Bartons Point Flying Club - Isle of Sheppey Kent|
The sun shone for us at the Costa Del Sheppey club scale day - and as promised the pictures here show what went on and also its just a sea of smiling faces...
Hi all - If you are interested we are having a CLUB ONLY scale day on Sunday 26th August which should be good for onlookers or prospective new members.
This event has been cancelled 3 times so far - because of bad weather. Despite this I know some of our club members have gone on to built other models to enter the next proposed date - keen they are - there are many certificates to hand out. If you can't make it or are too far away I will post you a video link showing you what was entered but if you want to have a look it should be worth your petrol... If you have a Sat Nav enter the postal code ME12 2BX - Bartons Point Coastal Park. Regards Peter
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