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Peterf's 1/4 scale Falcon Models Tiger Moth

Build log for my quarter scale Tiger Moth

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Manish Chandrayan16/05/2018 17:05:41
424 forum posts
56 photos

Thanks for confirming the the throws Peteryes

PeterF17/05/2018 07:20:55
avatar
325 forum posts
548 photos

Here are some still taken from a friend's video camera, I'll get the video added later. These are after the hinge lines had been sealed

2_12.jpg

3_38.jpg

6_18.jpg

6_19.jpg

6_21.jpg

6_22.jpg

Richard Thornton 217/05/2018 11:09:04
13 forum posts
Posted by Manish Chandrayan on 16/05/2018 13:28:39:
Posted by Richard Thornton 2 on 16/05/2018 12:32:54:

Hi Manish

The throws on my model plans are missing so I am using the throws as per the full size, but not sure your question was aimed at me.

Hello! Richard, the question regarding throws was for Peter. The Falcon kit instructions mention the throws. What kit are you building yours from?

Hi Manish and Peter

I am building the Traplet Duncan Hutson 1/4 scale moth. Many thanks for the details on the throws Peter. The full size scaled down are even larger than your models throws so i will work from yours.

Peter. I have been thinking about your plane climbing under little power, ie you said you were having to force her down. Could it be that due to no fuel , ie electric, she is tail heavy and that might explain why she is also supper sensitive to control surface inputs. I know from bitter experience that the further back the cofg is the more underwear changes are required. I prefer a little foward of the cofg, taming the beast until confidence is built up. No 3d flying for me.

Manish Chandrayan17/05/2018 11:17:17
424 forum posts
56 photos
Lovely pictures Peter and nice blue skies to fly
Manish Chandrayan17/05/2018 11:19:10
424 forum posts
56 photos
Richard, great kit to build. I had bought the plans and was planning to build that but then the Falcon kit came along and I picked up that. Are you doing a build log?
PeterF17/05/2018 12:33:26
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325 forum posts
548 photos
Posted by Richard Thornton 2 on 17/05/2018 11:09:04:

I am building the Traplet Duncan Hutson 1/4 scale moth. Many thanks for the details on the throws Peter. The full size scaled down are even larger than your models throws so i will work from yours.

Peter. I have been thinking about your plane climbing under little power, ie you said you were having to force her down. Could it be that due to no fuel , ie electric, she is tail heavy and that might explain why she is also supper sensitive to control surface inputs. I know from bitter experience that the further back the cofg is the more underwear changes are required. I prefer a little foward of the cofg, taming the beast until confidence is built up. No 3d flying for me.

Richard,

I wanted to build the Falcon Models kit but I had something else on the board so I kept putting off the purchase decision. Then when I came to buy it, Chris had stopped selling the kits so I bought an unstarted Duncan Hutson kit but did not have the time to start building it. Then Chris started selling his kit again, so as soon as he was back in business I snapped one up and sold the Duncan Hutson kit, luckily selling it for what I paid. However, I did buy wheels and tyres from the Hutson Kit as they are scale items, unlike the ones offered with the Falcon Models kit.

Anyway, in terms of the CoG, I am slightly forward of the required point because the location on the plan will be for an empty fuel tank so with the batteries in I can go forward slightly. When I set out converting it to electric I did a proper force balance around the CoG by calculating the torque of each component around the CoG using the weight and distance from the CoG. I summed the torque of the full fuel tank, throttle servo and Laser 150 compared to the electric motor, ESC and flight batteries, which then fixed the flight battery location, because I fixed this before I had completed the build to then arrive at the flight battery location by trial and error. And I can say it has worked out.

It may be that in fact I was bringing the model in at a higher throttle setting than I thought I had because of a nervousness to go too slow. Now I have done the stall test I have found quarter throttle needs up elevator, which means that the plane will sink of its own accord, I was probably not going this low to start with. I have now added a tickover switch at 1,500rpm using the idle down function so that I can not actually go too far and know I will always have some prop wash for the final flair out and landing. Being more confident about the low end performance will mean bringing it in with less throttle, which I believe will help the approach.

I also want to check the motor mount I constructed to see if I have got accidentally added some down thrust, but I am going to leave this one alone until I have built up some more time in the air..

Richard Thornton 217/05/2018 14:11:34
13 forum posts
Posted by Manish Chandrayan on 17/05/2018 11:19:10:
Richard, great kit to build. I had bought the plans and was planning to build that but then the Falcon kit came along and I picked up that. Are you doing a build log?

Manish, no i have not done a build log, i started it that many years ago that forums like this were not possible, BUT you and PeterF have given me the urge to crack on and do some catching up of my own.

I might actually start a part build log now that this is possible, i enjoy the feed back and the fact you are able to ask like minded folks questions

Manish Chandrayan17/05/2018 14:20:34
424 forum posts
56 photos

Richard go on do it. We would love to watch another Tiger come along. I started my Falcon kit about 7 years back and still not complete. That should give you some solace smiley

Yes the fact that others are able to advice and help is a big plus of doing a build log and asking when required. I have received and really appreciate all the help from folks on this and other forums

Richard Thornton 217/05/2018 14:21:31
13 forum posts
Posted by PeterF on 17/05/2018 12:33:26:
Posted by Richard Thornton 2 on 17/05/2018 11:09:04:

I am building the Traplet Duncan Hutson 1/4 scale moth. Many thanks for the details on the throws Peter. The full size scaled down are even larger than your models throws so i will work from yours.

Peter. I have been thinking about your plane climbing under little power, ie you said you were having to force her down. Could it be that due to no fuel , ie electric, she is tail heavy and that might explain why she is also supper sensitive to control surface inputs. I know from bitter experience that the further back the cofg is the more underwear changes are required. I prefer a little foward of the cofg, taming the beast until confidence is built up. No 3d flying for me.

Richard,

I wanted to build the Falcon Models kit but I had something else on the board so I kept putting off the purchase decision. Then when I came to buy it, Chris had stopped selling the kits so I bought an unstarted Duncan Hutson kit but did not have the time to start building it. Then Chris started selling his kit again, so as soon as he was back in business I snapped one up and sold the Duncan Hutson kit, luckily selling it for what I paid. However, I did buy wheels and tyres from the Hutson Kit as they are scale items, unlike the ones offered with the Falcon Models kit.

Anyway, in terms of the CoG, I am slightly forward of the required point because the location on the plan will be for an empty fuel tank so with the batteries in I can go forward slightly. When I set out converting it to electric I did a proper force balance around the CoG by calculating the torque of each component around the CoG using the weight and distance from the CoG. I summed the torque of the full fuel tank, throttle servo and Laser 150 compared to the electric motor, ESC and flight batteries, which then fixed the flight battery location, because I fixed this before I had completed the build to then arrive at the flight battery location by trial and error. And I can say it has worked out.

It may be that in fact I was bringing the model in at a higher throttle setting than I thought I had because of a nervousness to go too slow. Now I have done the stall test I have found quarter throttle needs up elevator, which means that the plane will sink of its own accord, I was probably not going this low to start with. I have now added a tickover switch at 1,500rpm using the idle down function so that I can not actually go too far and know I will always have some prop wash for the final flair out and landing. Being more confident about the low end performance will mean bringing it in with less throttle, which I believe will help the approach.

I also want to check the motor mount I constructed to see if I have got accidentally added some down thrust, but I am going to leave this one alone until I have built up some more time in the air..

Well Peter you have done the homework there. I know electric flight is totally different from ic particulally as you say on tickover and low speeds. Makes perfect sense what you have done. Now the weathers improved your going to get a chance to get some flight time under your belt. Have fun as you have really earned it .

PeterF21/05/2018 21:49:53
avatar
325 forum posts
548 photos

Out flying again today and I have settled on a pseudo tickover of 1950rpm set by trial and error. This is the first electric plane where I have the need to have a tickover set. The landings are much more predictable now and no more nosing over as there is always enough air flow over the elevator.

PeterF26/05/2018 14:11:20
avatar
325 forum posts
548 photos

The second video of the Tiger Moth, taken after the hinge lines were sealed is shown below. There was a gusty cross wind on that afternoon so the flight was a bit bumpy at times. These are the edited highlights from the flight.

The edited highlights can also be seen on my channel at **LINK**

The full 9 minute flight can be seen on my friends' channel at **LINK**

Edited By PeterF on 26/05/2018 14:13:16

trebor26/05/2018 18:06:48
avatar
1642 forum posts
203 photos

Beautiful model, I have the volume turned up to maximum but its still too quiet laugh

Manish Chandrayan28/05/2018 14:12:14
424 forum posts
56 photos

Lovely flying, watched the entire video multiple times, but each time I turned volume down to mute and imagined the music of a well tuned four stroke cheeky

Edited By Manish Chandrayan on 28/05/2018 14:12:39

Richard Thornton 212/07/2018 11:52:04
13 forum posts

Hi Peter.

I have really missed your post of late. Last week i was injured at work so find myself with ample time to do some work on my plane, every cloud......

I find myself still devisible by 20 which seems almost impossible, but like Manish said, it might be fun to start a post of my own so that I feel a sence of not working on my own. I hope this glorious weather, called a heat wave in the uk but summer in other parts of the world, has given you time to get air in the rigging and pleasure to you in completing a magnificent project.

Regards Rich T

PeterF12/07/2018 22:11:39
avatar
325 forum posts
548 photos

Richard,

Sorry to hear of work problems and I wish you a speedy recovery.

An update on the Tiggie is that I won my clubs scale trophy this year with it. I have taken it to another clubs open day and it got a very good reception. I have probably got 30 to 40 flights now and I am well settled in with it. Perhaps not as many as I could have given the weather in June, but I was away for the whole of the month. the pseudo tickover is working very well. I have a throttle to elevator mix which adds some down trim in at low throttle because the plane did not want to sink into landings. Finally, the springs in the u/c seemed to weak, the springs were shorter than the unloaded legs giving a lot of unsprung movement, so I dismantled them and put a packing piece of aluminium bar in to remove all the slop. The landings are now so much easier and make me look like a pro. The final change is to swap the Master Airscrew prop for a painted WW2 Xoar one which hopefully will be more efficient or more thrust for same power (not hard vs the MA props), but this will not arrive for another week or two. I could have gone for an APC, but it would not look right.

I have not touched the CoG or the engine thrust line, I checked the thrust line and it was spot on at 0 deg to the datum line per the plan. The throttle to elevator mix has sorted it all out.

Edited By PeterF on 12/07/2018 22:12:10

PeterF12/07/2018 22:17:08
avatar
325 forum posts
548 photos

To provide some more inspiration to completing your build (and Manish) here is a photo from a flight last week as the plane was coming in for a landing.

john 4 july 18.jpg

Manish Chandrayan13/07/2018 02:12:48
424 forum posts
56 photos
Show us that Trophy Peter. And oh! Congratulations on a well deserved win.
Richard Thornton 213/07/2018 10:18:51
13 forum posts

Morning all.

As Manish says, WELL DONE on your award, reghtly deserved too. I am sure with the change of prop you will emediatly notice the difference to in the handling.

Interesting you mention about the undercarriage, i inadvertantly must have bought one of the last Flair kit undercarriages and its going to be my next mini project. I have already completed and covered the one that was described in my kit, but after comparison with the full scale, found it wanting both in appearance and suspension, which was provided by the marvellous scale rubber tyres.

The resident nurse has just had a peek at your last post and is siutably impressed too, you have it in writting now!!!. She has asked if your going to display at any of the shows or locally. We live near Rugby.

Once again, thanks for the posting ... very gratefully received

Edited By Richard Thornton 2 on 13/07/2018 10:19:56

Manish Chandrayan13/07/2018 10:38:53
424 forum posts
56 photos
Hello! Richard, sorry to hear about your accident. Hope nothing major. Wish you a speedy recovery.

Peter
Do you think I should change the springs to a longer and stiffer ones?
PeterF13/07/2018 16:21:37
avatar
325 forum posts
548 photos

Manish,

I recommend you either add a packing piece or get longer springs with a similar strength. Now I have added my packing piece I do not believe I need stronger springs. Trophy below, it is good because it is bespoke, the source of it is lost in the shroud of club history..

Richard,

I am in the North East so I am unlikely to be down in the midlands with the Moth, but if I ever do (Greenacres fly in or such like) then I will let you know.

dsc06831.jpg

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