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BMFA Achievement schemes

Bit of reading for you

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john stones 118/03/2016 18:27:27
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Not sure if we've had a link to this ?

Worth a read and it may clarify some questions that've been raised recently, also it gives the BMFA's thinking on things.

John

Erfolg20/03/2016 15:06:56
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I have read the link, I am not sure of why. I can guess, although the piece does not state why a Basic test is necessary or what it is expected to deliver to all concerned.

It could be just a personal way of seeing the world. For me any test has a goal. It could be a qualification which says, you have achieved a standard which sets you apart, you are part of an elite. It could be to demonstrate that you have reached a standard that is expected, to be allowed to undertake some role or task. It could be to satisfy some regulatory requirement. This concept or idea sets everything that follows for me.

Again this type of subject could be published via the mag, to reach all members. Unlike some I do value the mag, I see the mag as the ideal vehicle to inform us, the members, of what it is that the BMFA does, although in this case, possibly about the legal framework we play within and ensure that we recognise our obligations to ourselves and others to operate safely. Not to moralise, to be myopic in addressing just one section.

I personally do like the concept of testing the understanding of all us modellers relative to the ANO. i do not like the use of numbers, particularly as there seems to be +138 from the example given. I also think that conventional safety is important, and would welcome some testing on this aspect. Such as the operation of a safe working environment, the flight line box/model park. I would like a basic test that has three parts based on, basic skill demonstration, regulatory requirements test and a conventional safety test.

I cannot say i am opposed, nor in favour, although interested as to what the changes are going to achieve and the why.

Dave Hopkin20/03/2016 16:30:37
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In the current environment with all the media attention on "drones" and various bodies pressing for additional legislation it is crucial that the BMFA encourages its members to be fully aware of the ANO and how it impacts model flying - to not do so could be portrayed as the BMFA silently condoning illegal flying.

Dickw20/03/2016 16:39:58
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Just check on the Achievement Scheme Downloads part of the BMFA site, and the reasons for the Basic Proficiency Certificate are explained in the new 2016 guidance notes for the tests as follows (my bold italics ):-

“The ‘BPC’ is a measure of flying ability and safety which "may be equated to a safe solo standard of flying" for aircraft that do not meet the requirements for the A certificate.

One of the requirements for doing the 'A' test, for example, is that the model should not be gyro stabilised. Another example might be any weight limits for the ‘A’ test.

So the new BPC tests give a lot more room for newcomers to the hobby to have a go at something, and for clubs to assess if they can operate at a basic reasonable level of proficiency.

I can’t see anything wrong with that concept.

Dick

john stones 120/03/2016 17:58:59
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The worry about the "numbers" is a worry over nothing Erf, the gist of them is the important bit, not whether you get the number right, and personally I think that's pretty obvious to the Examiners.

John

Erfolg20/03/2016 22:23:24
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I do not doubt that there is a reason for the introduction of these schemes, some of which are new to me. What matters is that the membership and those who may wish to take them know the logic for each scheme.

At present the BMFA web site does not seem to be visited by many. More do see the mag. More important still is to sell the schemes to us all, members regulators and any other stake holders (luv, the modern jargon).

I may be very supportive, If knew what they are and why, which could also be true for many others.

To you John the numbers may not matter, for many members they will be deterred by this obstacle, yet in truth they could well know the principal, and even the detail of a specific aspect of the acts or regulation. The numerical identification could well act as a barrier. A better approach for the majority could be more specific,perhaps asking pointedly, what is the minimum separation distance required between people and property and a model under various situations. I am sure that more often than not the candidate will be able to provide the broad brush requirements, some provide chapter and verse.

Given that the principal issue today is ensuring that members know the requirements of the ANO, the mag could run a series of articles of what the acts state and then an interpretation of how the regulation should be interpreted and how the principals put into practise. Perhaps illustrations of what is not acceptable.

john stones 120/03/2016 22:40:29
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I made my point poorly Erf, I'm not saying the number doesn't matter to me, what I meant was I expect this worry to be addressed when Examiners get their paper work, it's knowledge of content being wanted not strictly the number...

John

Airpaddler21/03/2016 06:58:03
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Having been " loving flying" for almost five years i would like to say that "I have no intention of being tested by anybody." As a result my club membership is almost useless. I can only fly in the presence of a club instructor "even now" then only when he will be there at the site and only when he does not wish to be flying himself. Effectively about 1 to 2% of possible flying opportunities. I can name at least eight people in my time with the club who have given up in frustration and anger. Also no little expense. It is good little club but spoiled by BMFA imposed bureaucracy and petty officialdom. I conceed the essential need for safety and control of inevitable cowboys. - But I address the needs of an entry level senior person. - I fear you are nurturing very few!

I luckily have somewhere private to fly. Otherwise I certainly would not be a current participant.

Thanks for the opportunity to get that off my chest.

Masher21/03/2016 07:10:04
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It seems a shame that you have got into this situation Airpaddler, there is a lot to be gained from being part of a club.

It's taken me a lifetime to realise that sometimes it is best to just back down and get on with life. So....... if it's a "good little club", why don't you just comply then enjoy being part of it? Anyone with the basic skills, and it sounds like you have those, can pass an 'A' test in about 15 minutes plus a night of reading the BMFA handbook - then fly whenever you want and enjoy the fun of being in the club.

What's to loose?

Dave Hopkin21/03/2016 07:13:18
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Posted by Airpaddler on 21/03/2016 06:58:03:

Having been " loving flying" for almost five years i would like to say that "I have no intention of being tested by anybody." As a result my club membership is almost useless. I can only fly in the presence of a club instructor "even now" then only when he will be there at the site and only when he does not wish to be flying himself. Effectively about 1 to 2% of possible flying opportunities. I can name at least eight people in my time with the club who have given up in frustration and anger. Also no little expense. It is good little club but spoiled by BMFA imposed bureaucracy and petty officialdom. I conceed the essential need for safety and control of inevitable cowboys. - But I address the needs of an entry level senior person. - I fear you are nurturing very few!

I luckily have somewhere private to fly. Otherwise I certainly would not be a current participant.

Thanks for the opportunity to get that off my chest.

 

 

Do you apply the same criteria to driving a car?

As for "BMFA imposed bureaucracy" sorry but you are categorically wrong, any testing process demanded by the club is determined by the club itself the BMFA does not (and cannot) enforce any standards on a club they are totally independent - Yes many clubs use the A certificate as a yardstick because its easy to do that, others have their own club test, other simply make a judgement call on whether a flyer is safe to fly or not

Edited By Dave Hopkin on 21/03/2016 07:28:14

John Lee21/03/2016 08:57:45
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Posted by Erfolg on 20/03/2016 15:06:56:I also think that conventional safety is important, and would welcome some testing on this aspect. Such as the operation of a safe working environment, the flight line box/model park. I would like a basic test that has three parts based on, basic skill demonstration, regulatory requirements test and a conventional safety test.

That's exactly what has been adopted - a flight test, 5 questions on the regulatory environment and 5 questions on general safety.

Airpaddler21/03/2016 09:03:43
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I do not apply the same criteria to driving a car. I fly as a hobby and a recreation. Not a lifestyle.

As to clubs being self determining in there rules. I firmly believe that the excessive embracement of BMFA influence IS removing the "safe" fun flying aspect of the passtime.

I have flown for a good while, competently and without any H&S issues. Governance not required!!

Dave Hopkin21/03/2016 09:11:38
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Posted by Airpaddler on 21/03/2016 09:03:43:

I do not apply the same criteria to driving a car. I fly as a hobby and a recreation. Not a lifestyle.

As to clubs being self determining in there rules. I firmly believe that the excessive embracement of BMFA influence IS removing the "safe" fun flying aspect of the passtime.

I have flown for a good while, competently and without any H&S issues. Governance not required!!

I am afraid that type of attitude is exactly the sort of thinking that will encourage more and more mandatory controls .

Martin Harris21/03/2016 09:15:06
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It's your choice, of course, but I'd echo the sentiments of the other responders and to a casual observer, it seems like you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. There's so much to be gained from a club - but not everyone will have your expertise and life experience and many see the A test as something to strive for with the carrot of being allowed to operate alone by their club. If the majority see the benefit and have voted to adopt the A test as a requirement, would it be fair to the other members to expect not to demonstrate your competence and knowledge by passing this simple test?

Cuban821/03/2016 10:41:38
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So are the existing 'A' cert test forms still OK to use on an 'A' test? Albeit with noting on them which mandatory questions have been asked.

Don Fry21/03/2016 10:42:36
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I am not a great lover of the A test as a solo requirement, the new basic test seems just the job to satisfy that safe operation is kept. As a French resident, French flyers rarely have any qualification, and the gross differences in standards of safety, and operational practices makes you very wary for your own safety at times. The rules are the same, the ANO equivalents are the same, but a much poorer safety environment because of the lack of a common training regime. And less enjoyment because you watch your own back.

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator21/03/2016 10:54:54
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I'm sorry Airpaddler but I am firmly of the view that you have this wrong!

That model aircraft have the potential to be dangerous I think is obvious. If its obvious to us then it obvious to others as well. We have to be seen to be responsible and taking due care - failure to do so will only cause us greater problems. What we need here is a sensible approach, with moderate, light touch, governance. And I believe that, by and large, in most clubs that is precisely what we have.

Bear in mind in the UK we have the freedom to fly aircraft weighing up to 20Kg without any legally enforcable airworthiness checks or pilot proficiency test. There is absolutely nothing to stop us constructing such aircraft capable of speeds of over 100mph. I cannot see that it is at all unreasonable to request that anyone who is to have those freedoms successfully complete a very rudimentary proficiency test to establish their basic competance and safe operating proceedures. Indeed it would seem to me, as I suspect it would to most of the public, that the unresonablness would seem to be coming from people who believe they should have that right automatically with no assessment/training what-so-ever! How many times have we been asked by members of the general public "do you need a licence to fly these?" They clearly have that expectation. The fact is we don't of course - and it would good if it stayed that way. But one element that will contribute to that relaxed governance will be if we display a voluntary level of sensible self regulation.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 21/03/2016 11:07:16

Martin Harris21/03/2016 11:08:36
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Posted by Airpaddler on 21/03/2016 09:03:43:

As to clubs being self determining in there rules. I firmly believe that the excessive embracement of BMFA influence IS removing the "safe" fun flying aspect of the passtime.

Interesting question posed here...as the BMFA only advise on safety and legal issues, does "fun" mean operating outside these very wide ranging and non- restricting guidelines?

iqon21/03/2016 12:23:08
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you want to be in a club ? , and fly whenever you want ?. Then there is a test. Plain and simple...or is that plane and simple......

Andy Symons - BMFA21/03/2016 12:39:55
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You can use the existing A test forms. Just indicate which questions you asked. The new forms that come out have a section for this. The form for the BPC can be downloaded from the webite.

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