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Scratch building, or is it?

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Depron Daz13/04/2016 11:41:21
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There was a recent discussion on a Facebook page about one guys interpretation of what is a "Scratch build". His interpretation was that of designing the plane itself, the drawing of all of the components, and then the building. Anyone building from a plan (and I take that as meaning including a 3 view drawing and the subsequent making of formers and ribs to fit) doesn't constitute a scratch build, according to him, that is.

However, I do not agree, so would like to hear what others think.

I am building a 1/7th scale Hunter as you may know, from depron. I found some line drawings online, which included fuz formers and wing ribs, and to save money I redrew them and scaled them up to suit. So up to that stage I have NOT designed the plane, but I have drawn it. In all reality all I had to do was draw the plane's outline, and not the fuz formers, as I have actually doubled the amount required and resized them all by 3mm. The ribs are in my opinion slightly wrongly sized and not enough, so I will be making new pairs as I make my way down the wings. There were root ribs and formers missing on the original plan but as it was a small plan, I guess they weren't needed. Therefore, I am having to "scratch build" as I go. I am making everything in matched pairs, and so far everything is spot on.

Once the framework is all done, I then have to make the skins to cover it all.

Therefore, is this a scratch build? IMO it is. Even just using a shop bought plan and providing your own wood and cutting your own parts is IMO scratch building, but what is the general consensus?

john stones 113/04/2016 12:04:57
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My opinion Daz, if you start with a plan and some materials you're scratch building

If you draw a plane up you're designing, then scratch building it.

John

Ernie13/04/2016 12:12:40
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I suppose that it isn't really practical to build all the components for a model from scratch.

It is of course possible, but wheels, spinner, horns etc. are just too time consuming, and demand some pretty specialised tools

So, for me, a model that is not built from a kit, is scratch built. Whether the builder has designed the airframe, is a bit of a headscratcher, but again, this is too difficult , because I certainly would need to build several prototypes to get things just right.

I've got KK Falcon on th building board right now. I downloaded the drawings, Bought about a million sheets of balsa, but all the aforementioned bits and pieces are from the excellent Balsamart

ernie

Martin Harris13/04/2016 12:18:59
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8945 forum posts
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I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head, John. The clue is in the wording - what does designing have to do with building? You can scratch build your own design, or that of someone else...you could even get your own design kitted and do a kit build of it!

 

Edited By Martin Harris on 13/04/2016 12:20:45

Delta Foxtrot13/04/2016 12:19:15
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My definitions for what they are worth:

Drawing up and building from your own plan: scratch build.

Starting from a plan: plan build.

Starting from a kit: kit build

Assembling an ARTF: assembly.

I am sure there are other shades and that this is subjective, but the words ought to describe what is involved in the process of making a model aeroplane.

Edited By Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:35

Bob Cotsford13/04/2016 12:30:44
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I'm with DF, a scratch build starts with a blank sheet of paper - or is that 'file' 'new' these days? If you are assembling any sort of kit or starting from a plan, then you are not starting from scratch. Simples.

Ian Jones13/04/2016 12:48:47
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Well in my early computing days a "Scratch Disc" was an American term for a normally empty disc used for saving temporary data. Another American term I've come across is a "Scratch Pad" as in a blank peice of paper for scratching (scribbling) down an idea. All this implies to me that scratching is starting out with an empty sheet of paper or whatever medium is used.

On the other hand we could forget "scratch" and use some other British word that more clearly identifies it's meaning.

Edited By Ian Jones on 13/04/2016 12:49:25

Dave Hopkin13/04/2016 12:59:09
3672 forum posts
294 photos
Posted by Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:15:

My definitions for what they are worth:

Drawing up and building from your own plan: scratch build.

Starting from a plan: plan build.

Starting from a kit: kit build

Assembling an ARTF: assembly.

I am sure there are other shades and that this is subjective, but the words ought to describe what is involved in the process of making a model aeroplane.

Edited By Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:35

In that case there is no such thing as a "scratch built scale model" as the external shape, wing planform and tail surfaces and moment arms were planned by the original designer

For me - this "definition" works

Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled.

Simon Chaddock13/04/2016 13:44:43
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My own take on this is who designed the structure.

If you are building from a model plan with all the internal structure detailed it is a plan build.

If you are starting from just an outline view of a full size then it is a scale scratch build.

If you are not following any predetermined outline then it is a scratch build.

To me it is the end product and how it was achieved that is important, not what it is described as.wink 2

Delta Foxtrot13/04/2016 18:14:12
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566 forum posts
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Posted by Dave Hopkin on 13/04/2016 12:59:09:
Posted by Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:15:

My definitions for what they are worth:

Drawing up and building from your own plan: scratch build.

Starting from a plan: plan build.

Starting from a kit: kit build

Assembling an ARTF: assembly.

I am sure there are other shades and that this is subjective, but the words ought to describe what is involved in the process of making a model aeroplane.

Edited By Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:35

In that case there is no such thing as a "scratch built scale model" as the external shape, wing planform and tail surfaces and moment arms were planned by the original designer

For me - this "definition" works

Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled.

I don't agree that my definition precludes scale models at all.

Steve Jones 213/04/2016 18:42:37
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528 forum posts
387 photos

In today's world, defining scratch builder is easy ... Someone who does not open a large colourful box and then assembles the 3 pieces of brightly covered model, adds radio, don't forget the gyro to make flying tolerable, then goes and flys...

Any hint of damage due to running off the runway into 2" grass which rips off the under cart.... then throws it away as they don't know or have the time to fix .......and buys another..

Respect to those who buy strip of balsa and cut pieces out !!!!!!

As to those who actually design, produce drawings and share with other true modellers, you are an aging breed and long may you inspire...

iqon13/04/2016 18:46:56
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1468 forum posts
239 photos

Scratch build ?, make it up as you go along......cheeky

Danny Fenton13/04/2016 20:13:25
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I am with most, to me a scratch build means you are not following somebody elses plan. Invariably you follow a published 3 view.

Building from somebody elses plan is not scratch building in my opinion, and definitely not if you build from a kit.

Just my two penneth.......

Peter Miller13/04/2016 21:08:13
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Personally I would say that Scratch Building is building from the raw materials. I would include building from a plan. This mean scourcing thematerial, marking out, cutting out the parts and building the model. |It doesn't make any difference if it is scale nor not.

We are talking about the building, not necessarily the designing.

Building from a kit of part is kit building obviously.

The suggestion that one cannot include scale models because the original shape is already there is absurd. The only thing already done is the external shape, the internal structure is different anyway.

Dave Hopkin13/04/2016 21:16:20
3672 forum posts
294 photos
Posted by Peter Miller on 13/04/2016 21:08:13:

Personally I would say that Scratch Building is building from the raw materials. I would include building from a plan. This mean scourcing thematerial, marking out, cutting out the parts and building the model. |It doesn't make any difference if it is scale nor not.

The suggestion that one cannot include scale models because the original shape is already there is absurd. The only thing already done is the external shape, the internal structure is different anyway.

I agree Peter.... my point about scale models was to highlight a flaw in a previous definition which seemed to demand ALL design work had to be original which on a scale only the internals can be original

Depron Daz13/04/2016 21:29:38
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760 forum posts
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Some good individual definitions, and its surprising how different some are. It is a subjective matter of course, and my idea of scratch built is this: Regardless of working from "shop" bought plans, or home drawn plans either of a known plane or a home design, or just from 3 views and "ad hoc'ing" the design as you go (pretty much my case with the Hunter) the drawing and cutting out of components from stock material, and the assembly of, to complete a flying model, constitutes a scratch built model.

Delta Foxtrot13/04/2016 21:44:41
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566 forum posts
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I think the flaw was in your interpretation, but no matter.

Posted by Dave Hopkin on 13/04/2016 21:16:20:

Posted by Peter Miller on 13/04/2016 21:08:13:

Personally I would say that Scratch Building is building from the raw materials. I would include building from a plan. This mean scourcing thematerial, marking out, cutting out the parts and building the model. |It doesn't make any difference if it is scale nor not.

The suggestion that one cannot include scale models because the original shape is already there is absurd. The only thing already done is the external shape, the internal structure is different anyway.

I agree Peter.... my point about scale models was to highlight a flaw in a previous definition which seemed to demand ALL design work had to be original which on a scale only the internals can be original

Dave Bran13/04/2016 21:49:37
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The term starting from scratch (a line scratched on the ground in sports) seems to have generated all the other "scratch" terms. Starting from scratch was starting from no advantage/nothing, Handicapping might allow others to start ahead of scratch.

If you take this to a logical conclusion then to "scratch" build a plane means you should have no advantage, and a plan is an advantage!

Me? I'm still trying to work out why if you can dismantle something, you can't mantle it up again..................

Dave Hopkin13/04/2016 22:28:10
3672 forum posts
294 photos
Posted by Dave Bran on 13/04/2016 21:49:37:

Me? I'm still trying to work out why if you can dismantle something, you can't mantle it up again..................

I haven't got that far.... I am still trying to get stuff to fit back in the box they came in......

Lindsay Todd13/04/2016 23:24:32
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1703 forum posts
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Well for me scratch building has to incorporate some level of design, scratching your head figuring out how to do something sort of sets the mark so design and build is scratch building. Building from a plan takes a percentage of this thought process away and as such is building from a plan using already considered design thoughts. Kit is a kit and artf is an assembly. Just my opinion though, does it really matter as long as you enjoy it?

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