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rc plane crash - 68% pitts challenger robbie skipton at raf cosford

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Robbie Skipton - Skip Model Designs20/07/2016 09:20:20
103 forum posts
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As stated. It is an issue with zdz engines. However. What can i do to prevent it from happening with out breaking the warrenty. Nothing. The fact the matter is it can happen not just on zdz, but other engines too.. you can be as careful as you like and check the model as much as you like, you will never know if it is going to happen!. If i didnt mention that it was the plug and it was the ht lead vibrating off the plug, would this have been more acceptable. Or would you still expect me to glue the cap on.i dont think so.

Out of interest what engines do you have? And i will sit here and go through possibe things that can go wrong..eg glow plug fail in flight, exhausts fall off and i would love to see your definive answer to solving issues! This includes electric flight ( speed controller burn out, motor swings a magnet etc)

All my models are checked to the extreme, belt and braces is how we operate. So safety is always paramount.
Martin Harris20/07/2016 10:57:14
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Posted by Robbie Skipton on 20/07/2016 07:25:20:

If the engine was a 4 stroke. It it would have still run fine ( 25% lack of power). But as its a 2 stroke . All crank pressure is lost, thus losing all power

Thanks for the info Robbie - I hadn't considered the loss of crankcase compression! All my multi-cylinder experience is with 4 strokes...

Have ZDZ ever commented on or acknowledged this plug problem?

Posted by Owdlad on 20/07/2016 08:33:06:

You say the power plant regularly spits plugs.......... This is the problem........ If this happened on a full size the plane would be grounded until a fix is found.

Your model was at 68% scale, to me that is on the boundaries of full size aviation. Under your own admission the power plant on the model spits plugs...... You flew the model with a known issue without preventative measures in place with the resulting engine failure and crash.......I'm sorry as harsh as it sounds, but that is pilot error (without prejudice) and the crash was preventable.

The difference between the grounding of a full size aircraft with a known engine weakness and a model is that operated correctly, there is little probable danger to human life and limb - a model of this size will always be flown/demonstrated under controlled conditions - not over people - and it is primarily the unmanned model that is at risk in the case of an engine failure.

Edited By Martin Harris on 20/07/2016 11:20:54

Bob Cotsford20/07/2016 11:12:50
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I'd also like to think that the plug blowing out is a exceptional but not unknown failure, I don't think Robbie said 'regularly'. If that is the case I'm sure that the LMA are aware of the issue and feel that their procedures provide sufficient safeguards to cover it. If not then maybe they need to consider it, but official investigations and inquiries? A bit OTT perhaps?

I remember a mate's BSA A7 blowing a plug out many years ago, damn nearly embedded itself in his knee on it's way out. Early Jap bikes could do it too. A year or two back I had a plug come loose and blow out of a SuperTigre G61. Doggy-doo happens, as long as it's only a rare occurrence acknowledge the risk, allow for the possibility in future and move on.

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 20/07/2016 11:14:10

Phil 920/07/2016 11:47:57
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Posted by Martin Harris on 20/07/2016 10:57:14

The difference between the grounding of a full size aircraft with a known engine weakness and a model is that operated correctly, there is little probable danger to human life and limb - a model of this size will always be flown/demonstrated under controlled conditions - not over people - and it is primarily the unmanned model that is at risk in the case of an engine failure.

Edited By Martin Harris on 20/07/2016 11:20:54

Very good point. You can not build anything perfect so there will always be an element of risk (full size included) but the circumstances the model was flow seek to minimise any risk to the public, The model did come down but it came down in a safe area cordoned off to prevent the public entering. It does seem more scary when you see these big models crash any you would not want to be in the way of an out of control model of this size. But saying that I would not want to be in the way of an out of control 40 or 60 size model either.

Models like this are at the extreme end of the hobby and there are not everybody's cup of tea. I did see this model last year at an LMA event and I remember thinking at the time it was a bit OTT and not to my taste, But I would not want to see a ban on such models or shows. I think its natural and to some extent heathy we hold a post mortem after any model crash in the hope of preventing future mishaps but there is no need for it to turn into a witch hunt

Robbie Skipton - Skip Model Designs20/07/2016 11:58:59
103 forum posts
1 photos
Im glad this is all cleared up now. And also happy that other people have steped forward with similar experiances to back up my case.

Zdz achknoledge something.... thay hardley achknowledge emails never mind problems...

Thank you once again for the levels of support i have recieved
MattyB20/07/2016 16:32:04
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2014 forum posts
31 photos
Posted by Robbie Skipton on 20/07/2016 09:20:20:
As stated. It is an issue with zdz engines. However. What can i do to prevent it from happening with out breaking the warrenty. Nothing. The fact the matter is it can happen not just on zdz, but other engines too.. you can be as careful as you like and check the model as much as you like, you will never know if it is going to happen!. If i didnt mention that it was the plug and it was the ht lead vibrating off the plug, would this have been more acceptable. Or would you still expect me to glue the cap on.i dont think so.
 
Posted by Robbie Skipton on 20/07/2016 11:58:59:
Im glad this is all cleared up now. And also happy that other people have steped forward with similar experiances to back up my case.

Zdz acknowledge something.... thay hardley acknowledge emails never mind problems...

Best of luck with your new model Robbie, but if this issue is well known on ZDZs and regular checks and maintenance can't mitigate the risk then I'd be very worried about reinvesting in a new airframe and gear for the same engine. Or are you planning on fitting a different powerplant that is less vulnerable to this type of failure?

Edited By MattyB on 20/07/2016 16:36:23

Owdlad20/07/2016 17:42:21
222 forum posts
140 photos
Posted by Martin Harris on 20/07/2016

The difference between the grounding of a full size aircraft with a known engine weakness and a model is that operated correctly, there is little probable danger to human life and limb - a model of this size will always be flown/demonstrated under controlled conditions - not over people - and it is primarily the unmanned model that is at risk in the case of an engine failure.

Edited By Martin Harris on 20/07/2016 11:20:54

Martin I'm sorry but correct me if I'm wrong....... A few years ago, didn't a spectator at a model show in the south of England get hit by an out of control radio controlled model aeroplane and died through injuries sustained.

I have no doubt that Robbies model was in tip top condition an well maintained by those concerned....but something did go wrong. The question I ask is simply was it preventable? We all know the cause, it's finding a solution to prevent another occurrence that is the hardest part of the equation.

extra slim20/07/2016 17:56:31
465 forum posts
48 photos

Give it up fellas.. Blimey.. It happened, it is a tragic loss for the lad.. Every show I go to I see a prang.. All safely away.. The hobby is in a decline as it is without the glass half full view.. Safety is paramount YES... But this model has been on the circuit for years... Done 10,s or 100's of flights, and was flown a safe distance away, and sadly got trashed.... There are probably more chances of injury to people when you take off or are stood at your local club....

chill and move on

bigbubba20/07/2016 20:03:41
78 forum posts

This is a discussion forum, please don't tell people to move on. If you don't want to be part of the discussion then don't be ...

Martin Harris20/07/2016 20:59:04
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9168 forum posts
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Posted by Owdlad on 20/07/2016 17:42:21:
Posted by Martin Harris on 20/07/2016

The difference between the grounding of a full size aircraft with a known engine weakness and a model is that operated correctly, there is little probable danger to human life and limb - a model of this size will always be flown/demonstrated under controlled conditions - not over people - and it is primarily the unmanned model that is at risk in the case of an engine failure.

Edited By Martin Harris on 20/07/2016 11:20:54

Martin I'm sorry but correct me if I'm wrong....... A few years ago, didn't a spectator at a model show in the south of England get hit by an out of control radio controlled model aeroplane and died through injuries sustained.

I have no doubt that Robbies model was in tip top condition an well maintained by those concerned....but something did go wrong. The question I ask is simply was it preventable? We all know the cause, it's finding a solution to prevent another occurrence that is the hardest part of the equation.

I think the incident you're thinking of may have been at a continental airshow and was caused by a local radio transmitter broadcasting from the show which put the model into failsafe and into the crowd.

The point I was trying to make was that an engine failure should not hazard anyone on the ground if normal airshow guidelines are being followed - therefore a possible engine fault is not an unacceptable risk as, for example, would be a poor radio installation or poorly constructed/maintained airframe.

will -021/07/2016 09:38:20
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582 forum posts
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Posted by Martin Harris on 20/07/2016 20:59:04:

The point I was trying to make was that an engine failure should not hazard anyone on the ground if normal airshow guidelines are being followed - therefore a possible engine fault is not an unacceptable risk as, for example, would be a poor radio installation or poorly constructed/maintained airframe.

Indeed and one of the delights of a model show over a full size one is that there's no pilot in the aircraft so the aircraft can be risked in ways that would not be possible otherwise, eg low speed, low level aerobatics where an engine problem can give the results above.

Keith Simmons21/07/2016 09:57:22
450 forum posts
9 photos

When I was learning to fly full sized gliders, we had to practice dealing with all types of emergencies so you deal with it quickly without thinking about it. Now I fly model planes and accept that I will crash my pride and joy to prevent it hitting anybody if there is a risk, even if you are doing all things correct and the other person is in the wrong place/area walking towards the flying area ignoring the warning shouts to move away.

I accept that according to Sod's law can and will happen and failures do happen to all of us.

I feel sad that there are accidents resulting in 2.4 deaths on our roads every minute around the world but we accept it and carry on (1.25m per year).  but full sized air shows and model planes, as it's a rarity we suffer.

 

 

Edited By Keith Simmons on 21/07/2016 10:17:14

Peter Android21/07/2016 11:26:40
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61 forum posts
2 photos

I wish Mr Skipton every success with His replacement Airframe .

Delighted that he has kept His spirits up , and I am quite staggered by the somewhat vicious criticism .

I do not subscribe to trial by media , which simply plays into the hands of the gutter - press and opinions are often best kept to ourselves. Modellers are under enough pressure without shooting ourselves in the foot .

Easy to hide behind a keyboard , and we all stray off the mark at times , it's a fine line twixt argument , opinion and discussion .

Mia Culpa . hope my Jankers ends soon.

Keep em Flyin .thumbs up

extra slim21/07/2016 13:45:25
465 forum posts
48 photos

here here...Peter, well put... although I tried to say the same but was "told off".... Modellers are under enough pressure without shooting ourselves in the foot ...

absolutely.. I like shows but if anyone wishing to put one on or underwrite one, reading some of the opinions on here, in relation to what was a non event, explained perfectly by an organiser and by the pilot himself, no one remotely in any danger, and safely handled..... would spell the end.. some of it is akin to ambulance chasing IMO

Former Member21/07/2016 19:52:29
3578 forum posts

[This posting has been removed]

Robbie Skipton - Skip Model Designs21/07/2016 20:03:25
103 forum posts
1 photos
I can understand that people have different views on what is acceptable and what it not.however.everyone is very focused on my engine, but several people have experianced the same problem with a variation of engines. So why is everyone still going on about it.

IF YOU cant accept that issues can happen at public events and i or other modellers make you fear for your safety. Then dont come to the events.Simple.Statiatically however, you are more likely to be in a car crash leaving the show than been hit my a model!.

Im not going to be drawn in to this argument anymore. The fault has been found. The plane was flew away from the public before it crashed so i was on the other side of the runway ( some 50m - 100m away from the crowd!).. if any one does upload the full video you will see!.

And if i felt anyone was in danger,the plane would have been put in the ground by me without thinking.

As i stated before. Instead of writing on here and complaining or trying to pick apart my maintenance. Give me a call! My number is in a previous post. I will be more than happy to go through all that has to go in to getting a plane like this ready!

Anyway. Thank you again for all the supportive comments. The new one is well underway now and i will start a new thread with the build and design soon ( maybe i can be picked apart about the build as well)

Lots of love

ROBBIE
Robbie Skipton - Skip Model Designs21/07/2016 20:12:41
103 forum posts
1 photos
With regards to financing... yes it is expensive. But you have to remember. Im a scratch builder. So while you are spending ?1200 on a new 100 - 150cc model artf. For the same money i can build a 65% model uncovered. The servos etc still cost the same. Just i need more to do the same. I still have to buy one or two one week and more the next! Im not a millionaire ( yet lol)

The 68% got built in 1 year. It still took me over 8 months to buy all the bits to go in it!

So i dont understand why people think you have to be stupidly rich to afford a model like this size of model! Just takes longer to get the plane in thr air than a 100 - 150cc

( space is the problem to store it tho, hence mine are stored at work ha ha)
cymaz21/07/2016 20:17:22
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9039 forum posts
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Having had a public crash.....I feel your pain and frustration

Keep up the good work. Looking forward to see the thread.

Phil 921/07/2016 20:35:14
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Posted by Robbie Skipton on 21/07/2016 20:12:41:
With regards to financing... yes it is expensive.

So i dont understand why people think you have to be stupidly rich to afford a model like this size of model! Just takes longer to get the plane in thr air than a 100 - 150cc

maybe it was the price you are asking for the parts set on your website wink

Will you need a new engine or is the original salvageable

Robbie Skipton - Skip Model Designs21/07/2016 20:59:34
103 forum posts
1 photos
Lmao! Its not that bad considering what you are getting... and i dont ask for all the money upfront.

We are awaiting 2 new plug caps and a new plug to try the engine. It turns over smoothly. Lucky the wing took the impact. So will let you know.

Electronics are still not tested ( will be tomorrow if customers allow me to). We are sending the powerbox back anyway to get it all checked aa yoy cant be too sure if anything has gone... belt and braces etc

Edited By Robbie Skipton on 21/07/2016 21:00:33

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