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Spitfire Challenge

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Mike Freeman 326/10/2016 18:45:30
22 forum posts
7 photos

Hi everyone..

I stumbled across this group by accident looking for help and advice on a little project I have taken on for my father.. Looking at some of the work in progress and advice given I feel I may have a chance of completing my little task I have set myself.

The situation is this... My father who is now in his 80's has made models as long as I can remember, many unfinished and many destroyed, the Helicopter was 2 years of hell 
On inspection it is a DeAgostini model and came in 60 issues, well they are all there and he had started it back in 2006. I have read that this is not a very good kit and flies "like a homesick wee weed rabbit" which I found amusing. 

The fuselage he completed and done a pretty good job as far as I can tell, I will add my father is/was a marine engineer and served in the R.E.M.E and in his day was a very skilled man so I am confident it has been done right. The reason I have joined up with you crowd is because I would love to finish the model for him, and if it does fly in a fashion find someone to fly it and take my ole dad to see. I know this would mean a great deal to him so I am gonna give it a go.

I have found many tools and things he had scattered around and having an engineering background myself I am quite practical and can read drawings and fabricate. What I am looking for is just some help and pointers as I go along and if I can call on some of your expert knowledge if and when I get stuck or are unsure.

I will post some pictures of what I have so far and get ready for an ear bending or the "oh my god walk away"... either way it would be great if you could help me make this happen

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 26/10/2016 19:28:20

Steve Hargreaves - Moderator26/10/2016 19:39:04
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Moderator
6689 forum posts
185 photos

Hi Mike & Welcome to the forum.......

The DeAgostini Spitfire eh.....mmm an "interesting" model. Some have been completed & flown but as you allude in your post they do not have the best reputation. There are a few threads on the forum....type Deagostini in the search box.

It certainly sounds like an interesting project you have taken on. I wish you the very best......It may well be worth going along to your local model flying club too. They will be able to offer enormous practical help. See the BMFA Club Finder section....you should also consider joining the BMFA so you receive the benefit of their insurance when you take to the skies.

Final thought....DO NOT try & fly the model yourself....it WILL end in tears. No full size pilot takes his first solo in a Spitfire... Try & find a seasoned RC flier to take the model up for you & if you want to fly it yourself perhaps think about building a trainer type of model first that you can be learning on whilst you build the Spit.

Denis Watkins26/10/2016 20:07:32
3460 forum posts
161 photos

Just to add my experience of this model, a young fellow brought one along to our flying field for checking out. Immediately apparent was the weight of this relatively small model, best described as "heavy". Ground runs were promising, though the Leo motor did not seem the best choice, it did run reliably. Range tests were positive, as all surfaces, movements, hinges and the like, the C of G was spot on, so after more ground runs, proving enough power lifting the tail, the Spitfire took to the air beautifully. Just a few clicks of right, and quite a bit of "up" maintained manageable circuits. All was well, and at a good height, the landing speed was assessed, and you guessed it, a wing promptly dropped (or is it that one wing lifts?). I was flying it, and it did feel like it dropped the left wing. So a Spitfire landing was made, coming in well above normal speed, flying to the ground, then taking the power off as the wheels meet the ground. In conclusion, the model needs a more powerful motor, it is heavy so fly's faster to compensate, but does fly well and barrel rolls look spectacular.

David perry 126/10/2016 20:13:28
932 forum posts
10 photos

Denis, from what you wrote the model does not need a more powerful motor...it just needs to be flown fast, which you were able to do on the current motor. If thrust lines (trim), torque, balance etc are all fine and if she "took to the air beautifully" then the motor is spot on. The wing drop is typical and a function of airspeed - which you assessed and fixed. Sounds about spot on to me!

The OP should try to build as per plan I suspect and the best of British!

David

Jon - Laser Engines26/10/2016 20:18:36
4417 forum posts
162 photos

I flew one of these once and it was fine. Despite a slightly wonky build there was no stalling, not an unreasonable weight and the 40 engine was more than enough. It wasn't bad at all

Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters26/10/2016 20:43:08
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470 forum posts
82 photos

Hi, interesting comments above. Might I suggest, as the wing isn't ye built that you apply 2 degrees of washout at the wingtips. and move the centre of gravity back 3mm from the recommended position. Washout is raising the trailing edge of the wing. As an engineer you will appreciate that the datum of a wing rib is taken from the centre of the leading edge to the centre of the trailing edge, regardless of the section.

The effect of this is that the wings angle of attack in relation to the airflow is greater in the centre than at the tips. Therefore you are reducing its tendency to drop a wing as it stalls. it will still stall if pushed but it will be far more controllable.

If you haven't got an engine yet then pleeeaaasse use an ~OS engine. You need reliability, yes they are more expensive but arguably the best choice here. Futaba radio would be my choice also. If you let me know where you're based I might even be able to recommend a test pilot.

Daren.

Mike Freeman 326/10/2016 22:50:19
22 forum posts
7 photos

Blimey I think I may need to become a mature student and study aircraft design... Like a Skoda I have heard mixed reports on this kit, but i must admit most have been negative... This to me just makes it more of a challenge or a bigger disaster...

I take on board your concerns on flying the plane, hell get in a mess with playstation controllers let alone a RC plane. i have no intention of attempting to fly it. As for engines i have found three brand new engines so far. the one that came with the kit, one that looks larger and finally a 4 stroke which looks rather impressive.

I will be honest and say some of your comments have gone over my head as i have no knowledge of aerodynamics and the setting up of planes to keep them in the air, i normally work with larger engines and boats, but everyday is a school day and i can normally pick things up.

There is a club near me which my father used to be a member and i will get in touch with them and try to tag along to a meet or two to see what its all about. i will post something on the forum showing the build and the little i have done myself so far, then wait for the abuse . I am totally open to criticism and advice as i am very new to this and do appreciate all your input trying to get this done..

Thankyou

Mike..

Engine Doctor26/10/2016 23:05:53
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2164 forum posts
20 photos

Build as per plan with the exception of the aileron torque rods. Dump p them and fit a servo for each aileron. The motor ,can't remember the make but it was 40 similar to the ASP or SC. It had ample power for this model and it does fly well . The supplied radio was very basic . I have test flown a few of these and none were bad flyers and flew with no dramas. A good fun model. A very expensive way to build a model though.

Edited By Engine Doctor on 26/10/2016 23:07:06

David perry 126/10/2016 23:10:28
932 forum posts
10 photos

Mike, also since no one has said it, and it needs saying...if you cant fly yet, the Spitfire is NOT the model to learn on.

David

Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters26/10/2016 23:11:32
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470 forum posts
82 photos

It sounds far more difficult than it is. As you build the wing,create a wedge the length of the trailing edge, so that the tip is roughly 3 degrees to the middle for each wing. build the rest of the wing on this wedge and it'll work.

Engine should be an OS40-46 2 stroke. 4 Stroke could be too heavy.What you need is light weight reliability. I would be pleased to help where I can. I'll even be happy to do maiden flights if it's not too far away. I often travel from Luton to Blackpool and Birmingham, Norfolk during the year and sometimes Bristol,Cornwall and often Surrey. I also design and build / manufacture and race model aircraft. So I can offer you at least some sound advice.

cymaz27/10/2016 06:40:06
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8272 forum posts
1144 photos

The engines were made by a company call Leo. I think it was an off-chute of a far east model manufacturer, nephew ran the engine side and the uncle did the models.

If you are unsure what to do about flying it......try this

I had one and it flew. I was too inexperienced at the time to fly it ,so in the end it went in. My fault not the plane.

If you haven't built the wings yet, try and build in some wash-out. This will help with any tip stall

Jon - Laser Engines27/10/2016 09:01:06
4417 forum posts
162 photos

The one i flew had plenty of washout already in it. If i remember rightly the model is a black horse spitfire 40 artf that they forgot to glue together and those used to fly ok.

For engines if you have the leo then use it. If run in/tuned correctly it will work fine. Its not like an old MDS!

Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters27/10/2016 09:26:46
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470 forum posts
82 photos

Yes Leo's are not too bad. We used them in the Funfighters a lot. Whatch the oil content in the fuel as they can throw a rod. I think Just engines brought them in.

Jon - Laser Engines27/10/2016 09:53:12
4417 forum posts
162 photos

On which fuel did you have issues with the rod? thats pretty unusual

Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters27/10/2016 10:05:54
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470 forum posts
82 photos

Not sure which fuel, we mostly used contest 10. I dont think it was the fuels fault as such, I still use it a lot. Just the engines weren't up to it. we saw quite a few cases of this on the Leo 37 though. I would recommend one of the high content fuels. Mostly the rod would come through the bottom of the crank case. Probably the pin sheared off. I never disected the motor myself. They just got sent back.

Jon - Laser Engines27/10/2016 10:18:40
4417 forum posts
162 photos

If the pin failed the fuel/oil content is not to blame, if it seized on standard fuel then again i would say tis something in the materials/manufacture. A shame though if the engine runs well other than that.

Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters27/10/2016 12:27:00
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470 forum posts
82 photos

Just a precauton. it might have been a dodgy batch, who knows.

Mike Freeman 327/10/2016 17:36:26
22 forum posts
7 photos

Theres different fuels????? I am no where near that stage at the moment but I will seek advice when I do go through the running in stages...

Mike Freeman 312/11/2016 16:54:32
22 forum posts
7 photos

Picked up a gallon of Sport 5 which was recommended by some and the chap in the model shop... wouldn't wanna run me truck on it... I had to sit down with a sweet cup of tea and a jammy dodger when he told me the price.... So what is so special about this fuel then and why cant I use the 50/1 I put in my chainsaw! wink

Dark evenings and poor weather will see me getting more done, not rushing things as I can see mistakes can easily be made.. Oh and accidents, thought I was off to casualty the other night with a wing on my finger, that glue is very unforgiving stuff!... blush

Steve Hargreaves - Moderator12/11/2016 17:33:17
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Moderator
6689 forum posts
185 photos

This is "Glow Fuel" Mike....about 70% methanol....the 5 in "Sport 5" denotes 5% nitromethane (ignition/power additive...5% helps with idle performance) & just under 20% oil. Perfect fuel for "Sport" flying (Do you see what I did there...? wink 2)

The 50/1 mix you refer to is petrol.....petrol will not work in this type of engine.

Ah yes...."Superglue" or cyanoacrylate adhesive to give it it's proper name (hence the commonly used abbreviation "cyano" soaks through balsa wood in a heartbeat & sticks human flesh very well indeed.....in fact that's what it was often used for; to seal battlefield wounds quickly....

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