|88 forum posts|
As with any model aircraft the irresponsible use of 'drones' can a problem. A problem in that unlike seasoned aeromodellers who would almost always have third party insurance, fly responsibly and probably belong to a model flying club or association, any member of the public can just buy one and 'go fly in the park'. As a retailer myself, I believe that it is the responsibility of the shop to ensure that the would be flyer is acquainted with the laws and rules governing model flying, recommend that the purchaser obtains third party insurance, be issued with a copy of the CAA's CAP658 publication or better still join a model club and of course sign up to 'Model Flying'.
To this end maybe all retailers who sell ARTF aircraft in whatever form above a certain weight or size should be licensed by the CAA to do so. This then would prevent irresponsible retailers who do not provide warnings and safety advice to purchasers from selling such devices.
Please check the websites, adverts and if possible check in the stores especially belonging to the larger retailers if the appropriate advice is given, a bit like a 'mystery shopper'.
It would be much appreciated if the only replies to this thread is factual information of the experiences obtained from a visit to a drone retailer either in-store or on-line.
|stu knowles||16/04/2017 22:40:46|
|574 forum posts|
Really ???? Do you live next door to a woman who had a model crash into her wall by any chance?
Edited By stu knowles on 16/04/2017 22:42:15
|118 forum posts|
1) Do you seriously think the CAA have got the time, the money, the staff, or the will to start 'licensing'retailers?
2) What do you propose doing about the people who a) build their own drone or b) buy from abroad...??
Is it April 1st still...??
|Jon - Laser Engines||16/04/2017 23:02:40|
|4889 forum posts|
I do think something like this is a good idea but how to implement it is another matter as many retailers (like maplin) will not have experienced sales people selling these models. Perhaps they would have to go through special training as I used to years ago to sell fireworks, but just like fireworks, after its sold there is little that can be done to stop those intent on flying as they please. It would probably reduce the number of accidental infractions by people who just simply don't know any better.
Also guys don't jump down his throat. To me its a logical and reasonable thing to consider and discuss. The sale of certain items are already controlled in certain ways. Most of the issues are caused by off the shelf drones and not diy jobs so builders are not likely to be effected. As for imports, if its that much hassle will the average person bother? unlikely
Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 16/04/2017 23:06:18
|Phil 9||16/04/2017 23:21:56|
4284 forum posts
Why single out drones
I bought my first model ( a large electric glider) from a model shop many moons ago. I took it to a park and flew it. the shop did not mention to me anything about insurance or club membership. I lived very near to a club site that I did not know existed until much later.
club membership or insurance are not a requirement to fly such a model. Without any specific knowledge I did however realise that if I caused any damage or injury I could be liable. But that would have been the case if I had bought a bicycle or a sling shot
1468 forum posts
I don't think it is the retailers responsibility. Why single out model aircraft.
559 forum posts
But at the very least they should point out that there are some laws that apply to the drone they sell. Thats the difference and why model aircraft are singled out. Most of what shops sell are not covered by specific laws about their use. You can buy an axe from both Argos and John Lewis but there is not a specific law about it's use after you leave the shop. Both shops are selling the DJI Mavic, both have the same sales information about how far and high it can fly. Only John Lewis point out the 120m height and line of sight restriction and point you in the direction of the Drone Code. There is nothing mentioned at all by Argos.
I agree that both sell many things that can be misused after being sold but at least point out to people that there are restrictions and where to look for them.
|Steve J||17/04/2017 06:56:26|
1621 forum posts
This is discussed in section 5 of the DfT consultation document.
Note the definition of 'drone' in section 1.1.
8808 forum posts
DCW, I understand your argument.
No one polices' the lay-by car sales you see almost everywhere. It is the owners responsibility to make sure everything is legal/lawful. There are millions of cars on the road and nothing is done to police those sales. What chance has Rc flying got?.....none.
I heard a news piece on Radio 4 early this morning that measures will be put in place to stop drones ( read quadcopters I bet) being flown into prisons.
8808 forum posts
Then it carries on assuming a drone is a quadcopter/ multirotor platform
707 forum posts
A further problem with such a scheme would be the second hand market. Original purchaser could resell, for whatever reason, to his neighbour, friend, or the bloke down the pub, no paperwork involved. So yes very complicated idea to administer.
|John F||17/04/2017 08:02:04|
1318 forum posts
I think it is important to understand though that a "drone" is any model aircraft. Every single thing we fly is a drone.
Any model aircraft is capable of being flown irresponsibly and by definition if you're going to insist upon some kind of registration, whether it be sellers or individuals there are a few major hurdles - the amount of sellers is enormous!
From the chap on eBay who sells thousands imported from China to the LMS who sells one a month the number of sellers is almost impossible to gauge.
Registration offers a few options, it could be voluntary and therefore a useless exercise right from the off or it could be mandatory which is, arguably, also useless as there is no way to enforce it without the law to back it up.
Insurance is not mandatory and, again, enforcing insurance would be next to impossible unless you targeted the sellers, of which is almost impossible due to the different types of sellers and worldwide locations.
As others have pointed out the fact that the CAA governs all aviation, and model flying is a tiny aspect, to propose their involvement would necessitate some kind of CAA restructuring, which I would imagine they would be hostile to do.
The other aspect is why ARTF's? A "drone" is any model aircraft and therefore whether it be ARTF, kit form or from a collection of bits of wood from your garage they are all capable of being flown in a manner that could give rise for concern.
It is an admirable aim but I think it is like the Star Trek utopia where everyone works, unpaid, for the betterment of mankind; unlikely.
Rather than target sellers or make mandatory insurance without the staffing or resources to ensure that it is policed the best way is education. Getting the message out to manufacturers, model shops etc to include a leaflet, for example, in every order that describes safe flying and website info etc.
But, lets be realistic here. Many of the people who fly irresponsibly almost certainly know that what they are doing is irresponsible already, they just don't care! My stepson has a land agency business and he asked me to teach him to fly his MR for aerial shots of land. He had crashed two MR's in the car park already.
I mentioned that he must not fly near buildings or property and he must have insurance etc, he simply stated he didn't care; he just wanted to learn to fly his MR!
Well, apart from the chap who wanted to fly a MR through the Natural History Museum in London; he was completely clueless!
Edited By John F on 17/04/2017 08:04:51
|Phil 9||17/04/2017 08:20:17|
4284 forum posts
Is there really some laws that specifically apply to the use of drones of just guidelines derived from aviation law?
even if that is the case there are many examples of products that are governed by law but it is always up to the user to know and comply with the law. The only time I see sales restricted by a retailer is when the law sates an offence is committed by the retailer itself rather than any potential offence that the customer may commit either intentionally or through ignorance. ie if a product can not be sold to under 18's (if you buy online this is done by ticking a box to confirm you are over 18)
As most have said it is a nice idea but it is extremely difficult to enforce . A lot of artf models I buy have some sort of warning about correct use within the instructions. I think in reality that is the best we can hope for
Edited By Phil 9 on 17/04/2017 08:23:36
1383 forum posts
I agree any form of registration would not result in every UAV flyer being recorded but like many other laws it enables a mechanism for prosecution/enforcement in the event of any incident, as in the case of the what I assume to be an accurate statement "ignorance is no defence"
|1220 forum posts|
Haven't we been here, done this and worn out several t-shirts in the process...
|Andrew Ray||17/04/2017 10:08:16|
718 forum posts
Yup, and I am even more of the opinion that we as model flyers need to distance ourselves from drones.
|alan p||17/04/2017 10:08:26|
|228 forum posts|
Agree with ChrisB lets not have all the angst again. Put the tee shirts back in the draw, some one is just fishing for a bite and caught some fish.
|Former Member||17/04/2017 11:20:51|
|1322 forum posts|
[This posting has been removed]
|john stones 1||17/04/2017 11:29:36|
10757 forum posts
They had drugs etc getting into prisons before drones came on the scene, they have alcohol laws, hows that working out, they have driving laws, they're never broken ? Seems to be lots of regulation and education going on though..conclusion ? there are some idiots about and it's a difficult problem.
Yep lets cocoon ourselves and leave others to educate, not as if we'll cop for any fallout is it. Drone friendly club ours, i suspect the majority are.
Fishing trip ? well i hope you've bought a license
John....gonna need a bigger boat.
|Bob Burton||17/04/2017 12:20:04|
|179 forum posts||
Any RC model aircraft is a "drone" in some sense
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