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Irresponsible ' drone' retailers

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Former Member18/04/2017 19:40:27
1322 forum posts

[This posting has been removed]

Former Member18/04/2017 20:00:29
1322 forum posts

[This posting has been removed]

Piers Bowlan18/04/2017 20:22:59
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The CAA Posted by John Helling on 18/04/2017 18:25:34:

1) Does every car salesman/women have to point out the dangers of driving.

No , because you have passed a driving test before you drive your new car.

2) Does every bicycle salesmen/women have to point out the dangers of cycling.

No, because if you are involved in an accident it is you that will be injured, not a third party.

Almost any action "can" cause death or injury if being done irresponsibly.

Your point is?

Look at .22 target shooting by sportsmen, they had thier guns banned and has that stopped people being harmed by firearms...NO!

Precisely. That is why the proposed EASA regulations will do nothing to improve safety.

Does all the legislation regarding drivers and cyclists stop people being harmed by cars and cycles...No!

Legislation NO Education YES

The CAA are trying to educate but it should be mandated that all 'drones' are sold with a CAA 'health warning',  clearly this would require legislation. With the greatest respect David the BMFA is a well meaning amateur organisation with limited funds and no legal status, it is not it's place to inform prospective drone flyers of their legal responsibilities. They don't see themselves as 'model flyers' but have bought themselves a 'photographic accessory' to add another dimension to their picture taking skills. 

 

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 18/04/2017 20:37:00

Former Member18/04/2017 22:34:54
1322 forum posts

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john stones 118/04/2017 22:41:15
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BMFA don't govern me nor our club, if they do...grass wants cutting n can we have fish n chips 14 times for Thursday night..oh n mushy peas for me please wink

John

Former Member18/04/2017 22:48:46
1322 forum posts

[This posting has been removed]

Guvnor18/04/2017 22:52:54
133 forum posts
Posted by David Mellor on 18/04/2017 22:34:54:

The BMFA is doing an excellent job, but is clearly (in my view) struggling to keep up with, let alone govern, the rapid changes in technology that have spawned cheap and widely available drones.

The BMFA negotiates with the CAA to define the limitations within which all model aircraft (including drones) are flown in the UK. If the BMFA begins to lose significant governance of drones, then it will find itself in a weaker position in subsequent negotiations with the CAA. For its part, the CAA appears to be coming under greater pressure to tighten regulation of drones. That the BMFA may become weaker in its ability to govern drones in UK airspace makes it all the more likely that the CAA will have no choice but to increase regulation. Which may affect us all, as indeed it is already set to do in other countries.

Clearly it is not going to lead to a good outcome for model flying in the UK if these trends (i.e. if the BMFA were to progressively lose governance over drones and if the CAA were to come under pressure to further regulate them) were to develop.

Sorry, but you really are heading up the wrong tree here.

The CAA aren't stupid.

The CAA know the difference between a drone and a model aeroplane.

The CAA have stated to people I know that they are 'not interested in what BMFA members do, and are quite happy with what BMFA members do'.

They understand what is happening with the drone epidemic and they understand that it has nothing to do with the BMFA.

The BMFA should keep drones at arms length, and let the CAA and the Police do any 'governing' required.

Why on earth should the BMFA have anything to do with this market. THe first major accident or fatality will instantly tar ALL model flyers with the 'drone' brush.

Sorry David but I believe your proposal can only lead to more problems, not less...

john stones 118/04/2017 23:10:55
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Posted by David Mellor on 18/04/2017 22:48:46:
Posted by john stones 1 on 18/04/2017 22:41:15:

BMFA don't govern me nor our club, if they do...grass wants cutting n can we have fish n chips 14 times for Thursday night..oh n mushy peas for me please wink

John

If you hold a BMFA membership card or have BMFA insurance, then the BMFA do indeed govern your flying activities, John.

Good governance doesn't mean someone sitting on your shoulder or telling you what to do. It simply means providing a workable framework of basic rules to keep you, and those around you, reasonably safe in your flying activities.

Perhaps you aren't a member of BMFA?

Edited By David Mellor on 18/04/2017 22:49:49

Yep i'm a BMFA member and clubs affiliated.

Self governing though, you don't need a handbook for common sense.

John

John Helling18/04/2017 23:24:31
67 forum posts

Piers Bowlan

Can you guarantee that everyone who drives a car has passed a driving test, carries car insurance or a legit MOT, NO YOU CANT

you should look at youtube at cycle accidents to see the number of people injured by cyclists doing the most stupid things.

Wake up and smell the coffee, you obviously have your eyes wide shut...

John H

Former Member18/04/2017 23:25:31
1322 forum posts

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Former Member18/04/2017 23:32:41
1322 forum posts

[This posting has been removed]

Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator18/04/2017 23:37:47
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Gentlemen,

there are ocassions when you simply have to accept that the "other guy" has a different opinion from yours. I think this is one such occassion.

This argument has run its course now. Everyone has had ample opportunity to express their views. Neither side is going to "win" as the other holds their views equally strongly. So let's move on please from this rather sterile debate.

Thanks

BEB

john stones 118/04/2017 23:42:29
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11645 forum posts
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Incorrect the BMFA make no laws, we govern ourselves under the laws of the land and we're philosophical about it.

John

MattyB19/04/2017 02:06:14
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The BMFA will not be recognised by newcomers as a governing authority (whether they are or they aren't), and the CAA have stated publically they do not investigate or enforce anything to do with drones. As a result to have any influence with Joe Public I suspect any note would have to be signed by the Police, a group whose purpose and role is understood by all.

The chance of that happening though must be near to zero... On the two occasions I have tried to engage law enforcement to address illegal drone flying the officers in question have had no real knowledge of the law with respect to SUAS, nor any conspicuous desire to enforce it. I suspect this is part of the reason the current EASA proposals aim to make most flying legal only in predetermined places, that way any officer can quickly and simply identify if a drone is being operated illegally simply by location.

Edited By MattyB on 19/04/2017 02:09:54

John F19/04/2017 08:49:33
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Posted by Guvnor on 18/04/2017 22:52:54:

The CAA know the difference between a drone and a model aeroplane. . . .

Why on earth should the BMFA have anything to do with this market. THe first major accident or fatality will instantly tar ALL model flyers with the 'drone' brush.

ALL model aircraft are "drones". What you are referring to are Multi Rotor aircraft (MR).

People have been killed by fixed wing model aircraft quite a few times over the years, sadly. Someone being killed by a MR will not change the balance.

Why should the BMFA not have anything to do with MR's?  

We fly gliders, planes, helicopters, autogyros, paragliders, pylon racers, jets and ornithopters to name a few types, all of which the BMFA are happy to encourage and ally with. All of which have modellers who do not like, or tolerate, other types within the list. I know of one who hates heli fliers with a passion!

Why is there no room in the BMFA and within our hobby for multi rotor aircraft?

Edited By John F on 19/04/2017 08:51:06

Guvnor19/04/2017 09:04:25
133 forum posts
Posted by John F on 19/04/2017 08:49:33:

ALL model aircraft are "drones". What you are referring to are Multi Rotor aircraft (MR).

People have been killed by fixed wing model aircraft quite a few times over the years, sadly. Someone being killed by a MR will not change the balance.

Why is there no room in the BMFA and within our hobby for multi rotor aircraft?

No, all model aircraft are NOT 'drones'! This is the issue. Model aircraft are flown by TOTALLY different people to the average drone flyer.

Most drone flyers are members of the public who want to get a camera in the air, with NO interest in the flying bit. Suggesting they go off and expore a model aircraft flying site is bizzare - it won't happen.

If the BMFA end up 'governing' drones or MR if you prefer, then the balance will change dramtically in the case of the inevitable accident. Any links with our hobby will bring legislation down on us too.

I really can't see how the BMFA, which 'governs' 30K model flyers can suddenly take responsibility for hundreds of thousands of drone flyers who have no interest in our hobby. They need their OWN governing body!

Former Member19/04/2017 09:20:13
1322 forum posts

[This posting has been removed]

Guvnor19/04/2017 09:20:30
133 forum posts
Posted by David Mellor on 18/04/2017 19:40:27:

The first point is the size of the drone market. Worldwide, annual sales of drones are in the many millions of units. It isn't known how many are sold annually in the UK - you'd have to guess (I'd guess 100,000 plus).

The second point is that annual global drone numbers are rising very steeply indeed. Drones are increasingly seen as big business, with global annual sales worth around 5 billion dollars. Contrary to what you might expect, only one of the 4 biggest drone manufacturers is Chinese (DJI), the others are French (Parrot) and American (3-D robotics and PrecisionHawk). Of those, DJI has a market value in excess of 10 billion dollars. All four are significant buyers from big chip manufacturers Ambarella, NVIDIA, Intel and Qualcomm. Also contrary to what you might expect, market data indicates that the hobby-drone "action camera" is not a growth area and may even have peaked (despite its apparent popularity in the UK).

Your information is out of date.

Drone numbers are increasing, but how you can say 'very steeply' is a mystery, seeing as no drone manufacturer I know would ever release sales figures.

Your guess of 100,000 units a year in the UK is precisely that - a guess. If you must quote figures, do some research to get accurate ones. Are you counting kids indoor toys? DJI Phantoms? Useless information is worse than none.

DJI are the biggest manufacturer of consumer camera drones. As for the others...

Parrot - 150 engineers redundant, now concentrating on commercial and military applications.

3DR - Very publically dropped the Solo and getting out of the market, concentrating on commercial and military applications.

Precision Hawk - They don't and never have made drones for consumers...

And you completely missed out DJI's main competitor.

Yuneec - just made half it's engineers redundant and concentrating on commercial and military applications. Intel OWN half of Yuneec, and still can't make it work.

The clue here is that DJI have the market wrapped up and the rest are getting out. Why? The consumer market has hit saturation and is now slowly falling. The peak was probably a year ago...

Just go and look at the number of Kickstarter drones which have failed in the last 12 months - Zano, Lily etc...

As for the pro market, the UK now has around 2K licenced flyers. This market is saturated too. Training schools scrabbling for customers. One of the biggest schools gone under (EuroUSC).

Far from being an increasing problem, I'd suggest the problem will slowly diminish over the years...

Edited By Guvnor on 19/04/2017 09:22:28

Former Member19/04/2017 09:44:42
1322 forum posts

[This posting has been removed]

John F19/04/2017 09:46:48
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Posted by Guvnor on 19/04/2017 09:04:25:

No, all model aircraft are NOT 'drones'! This is the issue. Model aircraft are flown by TOTALLY different people to the average drone flyer.

Most drone flyers are members of the public who want to get a camera in the air, with NO interest in the flying bit. Suggesting they go off and expore a model aircraft flying site is bizzare - it won't happen.

If the BMFA end up 'governing' drones or MR if you prefer, then the balance will change dramtically in the case of the inevitable accident. Any links with our hobby will bring legislation down on us too.

I really can't see how the BMFA, which 'governs' 30K model flyers can suddenly take responsibility for hundreds of thousands of drone flyers who have no interest in our hobby. They need their OWN governing body!

With respect;

firstly drones are any model aircraft: The BMFA specifically refers to what you see as a "drone" as Multi Rotor aircraft: **LINK**

The CAA also refers to any model aircraft as a drone, RPAS or UAV.

By stating that MR fliers are not interested in flying is tarring a lot of people with one huge brush! We have several members at our club who fly MR's, just to fly or race them, and many fixed wing fliers also fly with cameras.

The BMFA govern all model flying. Please check out the BMFA website. There is no difference to what is being flown as the rules are all the same for all model flying.

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