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Mick Reeves Gangster 63 Lite

First RC kit build - for classic pattern aerobatics

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Jonathan M24/04/2017 16:15:47
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670 forum posts
275 photos

So the Gangster 63 Lite kit has arrived. Laser-cut parts look pretty good and included is a full set of accessories. No plans but a reasonably clear instruction leaflet. I'll start construction shortly and post photographs as I go along. Not decided on colours of covering yet, but likely to use Profilm/Oracover.

Now considering the power-plant and servos.

On the basis that Mick Reeves suggests 0.20 to 0.40 two-strokes, and given how light the model is likely to be, I wish to power it appropriately for its core (classic pattern) tasks rather than excessively (constant get-out-of-jail-free power).

So my engine of choice is the OS 35AX, within the suggested range but a modern and pretty powerful engine. It is rated at a maximum of 0.9 PS or 660 Watts, and with a likely final flying weight of 4lbs or so, this will provide about 165 Watts per lb, which sounds like more than enough!

Servos I'm still thinking about. The cheap and easy route would be to fit Futaba S3003 standards, or their slightly dearer slightly more powerful bearing versions, but I'm wondering about the Ripmax New Power XL-38HMB standard, which is quoted at having an astonishingly high torque:

Weight: 42g
Bearings: Twin Ballrace
Dimensions: 39.9 x 19.8 x 47mm
Gear Type: Metal
Speed (4.8v): 0.16secs 60Deg
Torque (4.8v): 9.0Kg/cm

At £13 each, I'd use these for elevator and rudder (including steerable nose-wheel), but does anyone have experience of how reliable the New Power servos are?

For throttle and ailerons, I'm wondering whether a slightly smaller mini servo would suffice, i.e. Hitec HS225M at £17 each:

Weight: 30g
Bearings: Top ball bearing
Dimensions: 32.3 x 16.8 x 31.0mm
Gear Type: Metal
Speed (4.8v): 0.14secs 60Deg
Torque (4.8v): 3.9Kg/cm

I've bookmarked the few (partial) build-threads here for insight (and errors to avoid!) and hope to produce as complete a build-blog as possible... and get started as soon as possible!

Jon

Edited By Jonathan M on 24/04/2017 16:20:22

Denis Watkins24/04/2017 16:35:11
3934 forum posts
63 photos

Can't wait to see this Jon, but don't skimp on the aileron servo, as I normally fit 2, even where one is provided, one in each wing, but is a well worthwhile faf, but there is no reason not to fit 1 servo central in the wing

I do put an half size hitec81 on the throttle though. All your specs are well within the design needs

Am looking to build too

Masher24/04/2017 17:16:19
1104 forum posts
79 photos

Hi Jon

I have one of these and it flies very well. I am using standard Futaba servos and the 'classic' Irvine 53 2 stroke. This combination feels perfect - certainly not over-powered. So.............the 35AX may be a bit small?

I am not a speed freak!

Nigel R24/04/2017 17:20:09
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3168 forum posts
486 photos

I'm fitting HS225s in the wing of a similar sized (albeit heavier) build, a HS81 on throttle and most likely some old JR507 standards on elevator & rudder. Or to put it another way - snap!

The new power specs look good, possibly "too good" for the money? I take the cheaper servo specs* with a pinch of salt - but I believe for your use any standard size servo would be ok.

I am a bit lairy of fitting mini or micro sized servos to the rudder and elevator though. Not worth the 1oz weight you save - IMO. Ailerons with two servos, well you have two ailerons, so some chance of control if one servo goes wrong, and a single aileron is a light load.

* cheap electronics specs full stop, really. There are a lot of optimistic specs around for cheap devices!

dave parnham24/04/2017 17:29:04
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168 forum posts
11 photos

I use the 3003 Futaba servo's in mine and a 148? for throttle.....mine has an Irvine 46 in it and its adequate but I think the 53 would liven it up and make it better, I've been meaning to change over for some time, just not gotten around to it yet.

Phil Francis24/04/2017 19:37:45
53 forum posts
11 photos

Don't use New power Servo's unless you want a world of hurt. Tried a couple a while ago they don't centre well, 1/4" either side of centre.

Phil

Percy Verance24/04/2017 20:48:13
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8108 forum posts
155 photos

My experience of New Power servos isn't particularly good either. Those I bought were not good at centering well. I shan't buy anymore...........

Futaba 3001's or HiTec equivalents for me all the way....... More often than not, budget servos will eventually come back and bite you on the proverbial.

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 24/04/2017 20:53:25

Jonathan M24/04/2017 20:52:51
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670 forum posts
275 photos

Re engine:

The OS 55AX outputs 1.8PS max, and the Irvine 53 1.7PS (and is described as perfect for 3D, which this isn't!). Both are effectively twice as powerful as the 35AX. If the consensus is that 35AX is definitely too weedy (anyone for the defence?) then I might consider something like the 46AX which is rated at 1.6PS.

Re servos:

Yes, good advice thanks, so I've rejected the Ripmax New Power jobbies. Will probably just go for Futaba S3001 standards on Rudder and Elevator (unless a metal-geared but affordable alternative is suggested, especially as the rudder one will need to drive the steerable nosewheel on sometimes rough ground), with a Hitec HS81 for throttle and two HS85MG 'mighty mini's for each aileron.

Re build:

Nothing yet, just a good examination of the parts and the instructions, which are beginning to make sense.

I'll replace the plastic spinner with a nice alu one, and think about how to beef up the flimsy cowling with cloth and epoxy.

Jon laugh

dsc_0688.jpg

dsc_0689.jpg

Jonathan M24/04/2017 20:57:23
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670 forum posts
275 photos

PS: Mick Reeves' instructions recommend using CA for the vast majority of gluing. I like this method for speed, but are there good arguments for Aliphatic (my favourite for scale rubber) or PVA (the slowest drying)?

Percy Verance24/04/2017 21:01:08
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8108 forum posts
155 photos

Drop the steerable nose-wheel Jonathan, they're more trouble than they're worth. The model won't be on the ground long enough to steer it with a nose-wheel. Use the rudder instead......

Stuart Z24/04/2017 21:34:50
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382 forum posts

Hi

My thoughts are based on the "old" Gangster I had, foam wing job and it would go ballistic on an Irvine 61 with the bog standard exhaust, the new version with the built up structure would surely go well with something less. My guess is an OS 55 would have more power than my old Irvine - depends what you want at the end of the day. If you want to pattern fly then power is important, if you are to use it as a sport plane, I'd probably find something less aggressive.

As far as what glue to use, CA will give a fast accurate build. I built a Flair Hooligan and had it covered in 24 hours using CA. However my choice of glue now is generally Aliphatics in the warmer weather, takes ages to set in the winter as I found the last few months, but with summer coming the Aliphatic is fine. If you are going the CA route, you don't need to use the super thin CA for everything and you gain some control. The super fast thin stuff is all a bit sudden if something is not quite right.

Just my thoughts.

S

Masher24/04/2017 21:38:23
1104 forum posts
79 photos

Unfortunately it looks as though they are still supplying the same old rubbish cowl - best consider building one up in situ from balsa

Percy Verance24/04/2017 22:03:31
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8108 forum posts
155 photos

I'd agree Masher. It would take 3 or 4 pieces of wood plus some careful sanding to get a cowl.....

Nigel R25/04/2017 09:45:08
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3168 forum posts
486 photos
Posted by Jonathan M on 24/04/2017 20:52:51:

Re engine:

The OS 55AX outputs 1.8PS max, and the Irvine 53 1.7PS (and is described as perfect for 3D, which this isn't!). Both are effectively twice as powerful as the 35AX. If the consensus is that 35AX is definitely too weedy (anyone for the defence?) then I might consider something like the 46AX which is rated at 1.6PS.

I wouldn't pay too much heed to manufacturer ratings on 2 strokes. Those (open exhaust, tiny prop, high nitro %) power outputs will not match what you get with a sensible prop, fuel and silencer.

More conservatively, I'd suggest around 1.25hp per 10cc from any given two stroke on standard silencer, propped down to 10 or 11k. Most 2 strokes work out quite close to this number. Add a pipe and it rises to around 1.6hp per 10cc, with commensurate extra weight.

Another way of looking at it for aerobats - 1lb per 0.1 cu in gets you "good" vertical performance.

Jonathan M25/04/2017 10:13:48
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670 forum posts
275 photos
Posted by Masher on 24/04/2017 21:38:23:

Unfortunately it looks as though they are still supplying the same old rubbish cowl - best consider building one up in situ from balsa

Option A is to use the flimsy plastic as an armature over which I'd build up epoxied glass.

Option B is to build up a cowl as you and Percy suggest. Would this be best done as an extension to the fuselage sides, i.e. as cheeks with bottom and top added, or as a separate balsa 'cowl' to be glued to the firewall, or screwed and therefore removable?

Edited By Jonathan M on 25/04/2017 10:19:42

Jonathan M25/04/2017 10:15:41
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670 forum posts
275 photos
Posted by Nigel R on 25/04/2017 09:45:08:

Another way of looking at it for aerobats - 1lb per 0.1 cu in gets you "good" vertical performance.

Cheers Nigel for that rule of thumb.

The 46AX it is then!

TIM Shaw25/04/2017 10:15:56
166 forum posts
41 photos
Posted by Nigel R on 25/04/2017 09:45:08:

Another way of looking at it for aerobats - 1lb per 0.1 cu in gets you "good" vertical performance.

Excellent Rule of thumb!

I find the modern 36s quite capable of powering 53", 4ib pattern type models, while once you get up to 6lbs you need a 61, and a pipe much beyond that..

Drag, due the model size is also significant I guess, so even on a very light Gangster 63 I wouldn't consider anything less than a good 46.

I had on original with an ASP 61 in it that was great, also had a 52 with an OS 40 FP which flew nicely - interestingly though I felt it was less nice with Schneurle ported 45 - maybe the additional weight didn't help.

And then there was the 42, interesting to fly while the OS21 FSR kept running, had a glide like a brick when it stopped....

gangster25/04/2017 10:27:54
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969 forum posts
17 photos

I reckon that OS35 would be perfect. It is way lighter than the old 63 and motors are more powerful Than they were. I have used an electric motor about 650watts. As far as servos I have used standard size can't remember which ones I can see no point in using little ones. There is plenty of space and the weight is negligible Defo use 2 for the aelerons. The world has moved from the days when a servo cost a weeks pay and it was worth enduring the slop and the fight between the aeleron horns and anything else in the fuselage. We don't need to go back to that. Also much easier to manage the set up differential expo etc. Totally agree with the fixed nose wheel comment I suggested that before and got strange comments but I fly in the air and find that turning control by wheel movement has no effect above an altitude of 5mm. The rudder however works on the ground Also certainly with an electric set up it can be airborne in feet if you want certainly faster than the reaction for steering time of any modeller I have ever met

onetenor25/04/2017 11:17:06
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1900 forum posts

Another thing about steerable nose wheels is you usually and up with a scrap servo toolaugh

Masher25/04/2017 11:34:48
1104 forum posts
79 photos

For the balsa cowl option I would build it on to the fuse once completed. Look at any/most of Peter Miller's models to get a good guide as to how it's done. It is also possible, if a little tricky, to cover the balsa cowl with heatshrink film which, IMO, is more successful than trying to find glow proof paint!

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