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Electric Cars.

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Cuban821/01/2018 11:48:05
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Something occurred to me a while back concerning all the talk about how electric cars will replace petrol and diesel in the near future.

At present, a conventional petrol or diesel car will depreciate considerably to a point at which those that are not particularly well off financially will be able to afford to buy a cheap but decent second hand vehicle for work, family transport etc.

For instance, a standard new Ford Focus or similar is around the fifteen grand mark, but a well maintained and perfectly serviceable used example that could be ten years old will only be around three thousand pounds, possibly much less and hence within the budget of those of modest means.

My concern is that will electric vehicles depreciate in value to the same extent as current petrol/diesel, thus bringing them within the budget of those with only a couple of grand or just a few hundred quid to spend? Will the cost of a replacement battery render an old electric car just fit for the scrap heap or only good for a hopelessly short range between charges?

Will we eventually be cutting off a whole section of society from owning the examples of practical and relatively inexpensive personal transport that's available today?

It's all very well offering those of us who can afford new cars, incentives to ditch our conventional vehicles through scrappage schemes, tax breaks etc, but spare a thought for the poorly paid workers who will never be in a position to afford many thousands of pounds on new or nearly new cars, electric or otherwise.

kc21/01/2018 12:26:01
5511 forum posts
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Cuban you are right! It's pure Thatcherism to get the roads clear for the elite!

But the lack of charging points will prevent anyone without their own parking space with electric supply to be able to run an electric car anyway.....

Edited By kc on 21/01/2018 12:27:40

kc21/01/2018 12:38:20
5511 forum posts
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The result will probably be that old petrol cars will be endlessly repaired by imecunious people just like we did in the 1960's when every young man learnt DIY car repair or he had no wheels. Now youngster seem to have no interest in doing anything - car repair or decorating etc - hence they waste energy doing excercise in a gym instaed of straining muscles working on a car.

The roads will become like Cuba with ancient cars everywhere.

I have just bought a hybrid car and halved my petrol bill doing the same journeys as before with the same size car.....

Geoff Sleath21/01/2018 12:56:30
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kc: Unfortunately, modern cars seem to need very hi-tech back-up systems to repair them so it's not likely that someone with a tools and a bit of nous will be able to keep them running like kids did 50/60 years ago. My pal's dad bought him a car back in 1958, trouble was that his dad lived in Ayr and we were both working in Welwyn Garden City. We took the bus to Scotland and it took us 2 days to drive his 1935 Morris 8 the few 100 miles back. At least we didn't have to contend with an MoT test which would have condemned the 3/4 turn play on the steering in an instant but we coped with it quite well

There was an interesting article in the Guardian yesterday about a small outfit manufacturing a car powered from a hydrogen fuel cell. Those could be re-fuelled as quickly as a conventional liquid fuelled car.

Geoff

Cuban821/01/2018 13:16:10
2029 forum posts
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Quite apart from the affordability or otherwise of electric vehicles for some sections of society, there is still a question as to whether electric will actually turn out to be the game changer that it's held up to be. I'm not convinced that it will turn out as expected within the timescale that's been defined.

Certainly, battery technology will continue to improve over the coming twenty years, although whether it'll reach the energy density of that contained in a battery that is the same physical size of a ten gallon petrol or diesel tank giving a range of 600+ miles is open to debate. I read an article a while back claiming that the way to go is actually clean burn diesel running on bio-fuel, which after all, with conventional bio fuel is just captured and stored solar energy. The clean-burn being achieved from both radical fuel (possibly genetically engineered) and engine improvements. GM does sound scary, but so does a huge programme of building nuclear stations to provide plug-in power for charging.

I think the article that I saw was in Scientific American, but this http://sciencenordic.com/biofuel-breakthrough-scientists-use-gmo-yeast-produce-fuel

is the same info

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 21/01/2018 13:36:25

Phil 921/01/2018 13:27:42
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interesting thread. apparently electric cars require a lot less servicing so it makes sense they will hold there value for longer. some company will probably make a fortune from less well of households buy selling cars at small monthly payments with high interest just like the bright house business model.

I wonder if a car will come on the market with interchangeable batteries so a battery swap can be done mid journey to avoid waiting for a charges.

whether you like them or not they seem to be the future choice of power with Volvo already announcing the are switching production to electric only.

I wonder what happened to hydrogen power, bio fuels and quite a few other seemingly promising alternatives

they

Phil 921/01/2018 13:33:50
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it is a fact thought for the vast majority of car journeys the current range of electric cars is adequate. but go past that range and you do hit a problem

Cuban821/01/2018 13:37:45
2029 forum posts
3 photos
Posted by Phil 9 on 21/01/2018 13:33:50:

it is a fact thought for the vast majority of car journeys the current range of electric cars is adequate. but go past that range and you do hit a problem

Try towing a caravan...........crying

Percy Verance21/01/2018 13:40:49
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6731 forum posts
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C8 I think we'll see similar depreciation in electric cars. Certainly, I've seen sub 10k examples of the Nissan Leaf being offered for sale. It does pay to know what your doing if you're considering one though, as I believe the earliest examples of the Leaf are the least​ desirable, and have a particularly costly - about 5k+ I'm told- battery pack to replace if it's goosed. Charging points may not be the issue many seem to think, with the network growing fairly steadily. All Nissan dealers have (understandably) free charge points, along with Ikea branches too I believe. I think I read somewhere there are 25000+ public charging points available now. There is little doubt that it is the way forward. Interestingly, there is a new housing development not too far from me, and one of the planning stipulations was that the houses must have EV charging points......

 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/01/2018 13:53:31

Percy Verance21/01/2018 13:43:17
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Oh, and C8, having read the owner's manual for one of the first Nissan Leaf's (Leaves?) I noticed that nowhere did it state that range would be reduced if you drove a lot in the rain at night.......  I do think we'll see another problem coming to light though, and that is an increase in pedestrian accidents. There are undoubtedly many folk who tend to cross the street, particularly in towns, using their ears instead of their eyes. 

 

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/01/2018 13:49:52

Don Fry21/01/2018 13:51:24
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One of the problems with bio fuel is you take the land someone hoped to use to feed his family, or clear Indians off Amazonian rain forest to plant up for starch for biofuel.

Times change, and the technology's change even faster. I'm not sure if electric is the way to go. I would suggest if we developed cheap, non fuel, no pollution technology, i.e. Hydrogen fusion reactors, we as a species would then use so much energy the waste heat would kill us.

We have to, as a species start to treat energy use with a lot more caution and respect.

But returning to the post, I would have thought electric only driverless boxes would be as cheap as chips to build. And there are a lot of vehicles on the road which never go far from base.

But in the medium term, the intermediate changeover technologepies between what we use now, and twenty years hence will go out of fashion very quickly.

Edited By Don Fry on 21/01/2018 13:53:52

kc21/01/2018 13:52:47
5511 forum posts
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Geoff you are right, so the answer is to buy a late 1990's car which has little in the way of electronics. They fetch peanuts now But it's the attitude of todays youngster that will be ( or is already) the downfall of our country. People must expect to do things for themselves.

If only I had kept my 1935 Morris 8 which I sold in 1963.......

But to return to the main subject - electric cars will not be useful because most people in cities park in the road. Putting charging points at every possible parking space will not be possible. If you go out and cannot park by a charge point so you cannot drive home it will be the time you sell the electric car as useless. But if everyone did buy an electric car then what happens when they all come home from work, put their car on charge,turn the kettle on and the electric cooker........will the electricity supply cope?

The future will be microcars - some new version of the 1950's bubble cars which just about carried 2 people and took up little space. A Segway with a fibreglass body perhaps.......

Phil 921/01/2018 13:53:17
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Posted by Cuban8 on 21/01/2018 13:37:45:
Posted by Phil 9 on 21/01/2018 13:33:50:

it is a fact thought for the vast majority of car journeys the current range of electric cars is adequate. but go past that range and you do hit a problem

Try towing a caravan...........crying

the vast majority of car journeys don't involve a caravan thank goodness

Don Fry21/01/2018 13:57:12
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2543 forum posts
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That's two caravans then.

Percy Verance21/01/2018 13:59:39
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6731 forum posts
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kc, the charging network is an arguable issue just now, but don't forget that when petrol cars first hit the road there were not too many filling stations or decent roads around. The charging network will need to grow massively, as will general management of electricity supply and infrastructure, but we've been here before when the car was invented. We humans are a clever bunch, and we usually find a solution eventually.......

Edited By Percy Verance on 21/01/2018 14:00:23

Phil 921/01/2018 14:03:11
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Posted by kc on 21/01/2018 13:52:47:

The future will be microcars - some new version of the 1950's bubble cars which just about carried 2 people and took up little space. A Segway with a fibreglass body perhaps.......

electric micro cars for commuting is a great idea but the concept does not seem popular with the one size fits all solution still being pursued seemingly at the expense of all other options

the car's position as a status symbol and its place in modern culture will be hard to shake off. in the current market place a car has to offer more than just being a tool for a job . but then you start getting into the wider issue of the consumer society vs natural resorses

Edited By Phil 9 on 21/01/2018 14:09:56

Edited By Phil 9 on 21/01/2018 14:14:21

Tony F21/01/2018 14:15:43
484 forum posts
105 photos
Mines a salary sacrifice job and I use it solely for work. When I'm off it just sits there. 50 mpg it's perfect for 2 and from work lol 2 years and 3 months old with 7000 on the clock. I know for a fact I'll never own a new car personally. But the wife buys a brand new one every 3 years for our family

Edited By Tony F on 21/01/2018 14:16:14

John Stainforth21/01/2018 15:09:08
200 forum posts
38 photos

Are we investing in sufficient alternative energy sources to make the electicity?

Dave Bran21/01/2018 15:19:02
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1892 forum posts
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You mean are we burning enough energy to make and fuel power stations and the extra infrastructure to be able to charge the cars that will save a little energy while running??

Dave Bran21/01/2018 15:22:20
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1892 forum posts
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While its dangerously near off topic, our "new" school is wood pellet fuelled which "saves energy", Yea, right, what about the cost of making the pellets AND the frequent diesel lorry journies required to fuel the schools bunkers? And the cost of making those purpose made lorries, etc, etc, etc........

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